Doomstead

I started planning to go off grid in the late/mid nineties. I was able to cut the natural gas off before 2000. Solar took longer, it was once unbelievably expensive. I bought my first panels in 2000, used at the time, for a price that will cause a fit of uncontrolled swearing if I speak of it. That first array was just one kw. I had to build a motorized frame just so I could aim it to the sun. 1kw is not a lot of power but we get a lot of sun in Alberta so I was living large right up to mid sept but then the shorter darker days of winter came and did not leave until mid/late march. The generator had to run, or contribute some power most every day in the oct to March period of winter. Power use was tight in the winter months. A few years later I added a few more used (12 volt) panels, bringing me up to 1800 watts. I was getting by but winter production still sucked. Then, I can't remember the year for sure, I think it was 2011-2012 and new Panel prices dropped to 58 cents a watt, and that was for top of the line Canadian production panels. Canadian Solar 225 watt panels. I bought 4 pallets, 5000 watts per pallet. I kept 8000 watts for myself, and resold the rest for nearly double what I had paid. So I made out ok on the deal. Now I had serious power production. Winter generator run time now can start up early DEC but ends roughly Jan 20th. So roughly 6-7 weeks when the generator runs, some time a little sometimes A lot. Over all that's not bad though it will get even better when I clear some trees. The next big change was Lifepo4 prices falling to working man price levels. About 4 years ago I made the switch, 280amphr  12 volt batteries all in parallel giving me 20kwhrs of storage. My usage is roughly 6kwhrs a day, so I have plenty. So cheap solar panels were the first big game changer, then second, these new Lifepo4 batteries. I have not had to change my system voltage, I am still at 12 volts, I find it still works fine for me.

By that description

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 09, 2023, 09:50 PMI started planning to go off grid in the late/mid nineties. I was able to cut the natural gas off before 2000. Solar took longer, it was once unbelievably expensive. I bought my first panels in 2000, used at the time, for a price that will cause a fit of uncontrolled swearing if I speak of it. That first array was just one kw. I had to build a motorized frame just so I could aim it to the sun. 1kw is not a lot of power but we get a lot of sun in Alberta so I was living large right up to mid sept but then the shorter darker days of winter came and did not leave until mid/late march. The generator had to run, or contribute some power most every day in the oct to March period of winter. Power use was tight in the winter months. A few years later I added a few more used (12 volt) panels, bringing me up to 1800 watts. I was getting by but winter production still sucked. Then, I can't remember the year for sure, I think it was 2011-2012 and new Panel prices dropped to 58 cents a watt, and that was for top of the line Canadian production panels. Canadian Solar 225 watt panels. I bought 4 pallets, 5000 watts per pallet. I kept 8000 watts for myself, and resold the rest for nearly double what I had paid. So I made out ok on the deal. Now I had serious power production. Winter generator run time now can start up early DEC but ends roughly Jan 20th. So roughly 6-7 weeks when the generator runs, some time a little sometimes A lot. Over all that's not bad though it will get even better when I clear some trees. The next big change was Lifepo4 prices falling to working man price levels. About 4 years ago I made the switch, 280amphr  12 volt batteries all in parallel giving me 20kwhrs of storage. My usage is roughly 6kwhrs a day, so I have plenty. So cheap solar panels were the first big game changer, then second, these new Lifepo4 batteries. I have not had to change my system voltage, I am still at 12 volts, I find it still works fine for me.

would it be correct from your description that you are running 8000 watts of solar into a 12 volt system?

I've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PMYes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

It's always difficult to make a change to a superior technology when you have invested a whole lot of money in an older tech and the hardware still works.  Think of all the big companies that had tons invested in IBM Mainframe technology when the Desktop computers hit the scene.  They were much slower at changing over their systems than newer and/or smaller ones that had never invested so much.  Besides the hardware, all the software they had custom written for their own systems also became obsolete as newer better software was developed for desktops and mass marketed, coming in at a fraction of the price of their custom packages, which also had to be individually maintained and upgraded.  Eventually of course they did switchover except for a few applications better suited to mainframe supercomputers.Another current example is trying to build all new Charging Stations for EV carz when there are tons of already built and still functional gas pumps which are going obsolete.

Is it worth the money to make the changeover from 12V to 24V?  You have to do a Cost-Benefit analysis.  For your own application, how much added efficiency do you really need now?  How much will switching benefit you in the future?  I would say as long as 12V does the job you need done and you can still maintain it in the future, it doesn't make economic sense to switch.  This is an individual decision for everyone, there's no single answer.

RE

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 12, 2023, 10:19 AMI've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

so the first thing I would say is is the turbine worth it? Most of them don't produce squat. I would suggest you try to log it because what usually happens with those small turbines is their controllers can only do bulk charging as they are usually a pwm married to a dump controller set to a specific voltage. The problem with that is when put up against a large solar array on an mppt charger their target voltage is immediately met by the solar and they default to dump load. Next would be they do not charge lithium well as they needed the lead acid to regulate their voltage or again default to dump. If I was you and you have your heart set on keeping a wind element I would do it differently. 1) find a small so so 12 volt lead acid pack that the wind turbine charges exclusively. 2) hook on one of you C60 pwm and set it up as a load controller (they do that) feed the output of the 12 volt separate battery to a voltage converter and charge the lithium battery bank with it at its perfect voltage. It works, I've seen it done on a micro hydro with the same problems 12 volt turbine, to charge a 24 volt lithium... when you switch to 24 volts all those competing charge controllers will not fight each other so much so you can leave your arrays plugged in year round. You then dump load like crazy for hot water, ac, grow lights whatever and boost your virtual battery bank that way. Cut down your Genny time...
Some random musings.
Cheers,  NF

Quote from: RE on Sep 13, 2023, 12:25 AM

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PMYes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

It's always difficult to make a change to a superior technology when you have invested a whole lot of money in an older tech and the hardware still works.  Think of all the big companies that had tons invested in IBM Mainframe technology when the Desktop computers hit the scene.  They were much slower at changing over their systems than newer and/or smaller ones that had never invested so much.  Besides the hardware, all the software they had custom written for their own systems also became obsolete as newer better software was developed for desktops and mass marketed, coming in at a fraction of the price of their custom packages, which also had to be individually maintained and upgraded.  Eventually of course they did switchover except for a few applications better suited to mainframe supercomputers.Another current example is trying to build all new Charging Stations for EV carz when there are tons of already built and still functional gas pumps which are going obsolete.

Is it worth the money to make the changeover from 12V to 24V?  You have to do a Cost-Benefit analysis.  For your own application, how much added efficiency do you really need now?  How much will switching benefit you in the future?  I would say as long as 12V does the job you need done and you can still maintain it in the future, it doesn't make economic sense to switch.  This is an individual decision for everyone, there's no single answer.

RE

it is a hard decision one I again have to make. I currently have a 24 volt system and am debating upgrading to 48 volts. I'm taking down the existing and reinstalling and the breaker and cabling costs will be high to do a legal system. So do I install everything I already have for charge controllers or up the voltage and install half as many at 48 volts... There is a cost to trade in and upgrade my inverter but probably less than the costs of twice as many breakers and cables and time...

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 26, 2023, 05:42 PMBeen thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 27, 2023, 07:36 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 27, 2023, 12:30 PM

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 26, 2023, 05:42 PMBeen thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

I am currently running a used TRIPP LITE PV2000FC 2000W, cost me all of 50 bucks of kijiji. Split phase is what most the inverters I see on line advertise them as, if they output 120/240

ok, we are talking about the same thing then. You don't see many tripp lites around. If you want the same kind of durability the magnum PAE is probably your best bet. It uses the iron core copper wrapped transformer common in low frequency inverters. It's nice because it does not have a heavy standby draw and is a well established unit, comes in 24 and 48 volts models. The newer high frequency units have done away with the core but their standby draw is higher. Their surge capacity is also not as good. In that realm would be the Sol Ark at the high end and the SRNA and growatt at the lower end. They are nice in that they incorporate the high voltage charge controllers but anything goes wrong with them and they are a brick... I just designed a system with a growatt in it. For the cost you can have a second one waiting on the shelf in case of problems. The growatt is not split phase but SRNA has one. And auto transformer is also an option.

Quote from: 18hammers on Oct 21, 2023, 10:18 AMThe shorter days of winter are here now, snow in the forecast for Monday, overnight lows going into double digit negatives.

That's getting into the Parka territory.  We're still at Sweatshirt weather here around 35F.  Sunny today also.  How about inside the house?  What temperature do you keep it at?  How many layers do you wear inside?

RE

QuoteUp stairs will be anywhere from 5 to 15C depending on day or night.

You do serious hibernation.  I hope you have chocolate. (https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bac54d_e2ca8521e74e421fb18157890bd18860~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_807,h_538,al_c,lg_1,q_85/bac54d_e2ca8521e74e421fb18157890bd18860~mv2.jpg)

Quote from: 18hammers on Oct 21, 2023, 04:36 PMFor winter I move into my curtained off area down stairs, 9 x 18feet =162 sqft area. the diesel heater just heats this area to 20-22C.

That's too warm for me.  Prior to being relocated to the SNIF while in my own digs, I kept my thermostatatt about 15C.  I wore 2-3 layers indoors, thermal long johns, sweatpants and crew neck sweatshirt, adding a hoodie sweatshirt with no liner if I felt cold.  To go outside to smoke a cancerette, I added another lined hoodie.  I had an electric space heater under my desk if it was -10F or less outside and cold air would bleed in under the front and back doors.  Turn it on every so often to warm my toes.

RE

Quote from: 18hammers on Dec 25, 2023, 07:27 PMI think the 21st was the shortest day of the year, and the last 5 or so days have been mostly sunny, have not needed to run the generator at all. I seem to get my needed 6 kwh a day of sun. I know that can change in a instant but the 14 day forecast looks good. Very mild temps, not even burning wood, getting above 0c most days. I was out watering my Cedar's the other day. Mostly a brown Christmas here (spots of snow). 

The 21st was the shortest day, that caught me by surprise. Times flies.  Every year seems shorter.

Quote from: K-Dog on Dec 26, 2023, 12:01 AM

Quote from: 18hammers on Dec 25, 2023, 07:27 PMI think the 21st was the shortest day of the year, and the last 5 or so days have been mostly sunny, have not needed to run the generator at all. I seem to get my needed 6 kwh a day of sun. I know that can change in a instant but the 14 day forecast looks good. Very mild temps, not even burning wood, getting above 0c most days. I was out watering my Cedar's the other day. Mostly a brown Christmas here (spots of snow). 

The 21st was the shortest day, that caught me by surprise. Times flies.  Every year seems shorter.

Every day is shorter, as a percentage of the total number of days you have been alive.  Seems insignificant, but if you think of years when you were a kid, a year seemed like a very long time.  At 10, another year was 10% of your lifetime.  At 50, another year is just 2%.

When I was a kid in the 70s watching TV shows made in the 50s, stuff like Leave it to Beaver seemed like ancient history.  Now in 2023, 2003 seems like yesterday.

Age changes your perception of time.

RE

No doubt age changes perception. 

It also does not seem cold enough to be this late in the year.  By now an endless rain of winter should be upon Seattle.  But today it is 44 degrees and sunny.  This is not the same Seattle I moved from Minneapolis to almost fifty years ago.  For decades the pattern was clear.  Endless rain with a couple or three weeks of snow in midwinter.  Very predictable, but things are much more random now.  I think it has been below freezing twice.  It has been cold, but not freezing.

We live in different times and it is not just the weather.

In the 70's the 50's seemed like ancient history.  Now old times are marketed $$$ so thoroughly that twenty years ago does seem like yesterday.  If in the 1970's old farts from the 1920's were still pushing old music it would have been weird.  Not so now.

Society ossified.  But nobody told me.  Social contradictions baked in the cake by cheap energy are tolerated by the satisfaction of general need.  Inequities hidden by human tribalism which ignores those who are out-group, flourish.

Money found a sweet spot and locked us down.

Well, it's true that life changed much more from 1920 to 1970 than from 1970 to 2020.  The inventions and applications of eneergy came fast and furious through the early part of the 20th century, the 2nd half was mainly expansion and refinement of those technologies. Few had cars in 1920, by 1970 they were indispensible.  Cars are still cars though, and you still can drive a 1970 Ford Mustamg around and be cool.  You couldn't drive a Model T in 1970 and be cool though.

Music changed with electrification of the Gibson Guitar in the 1950s, bringing on Rock n Roll.  Everything before was instantly obsolete.  A few AM radio stations still played Frank Sinatra and he still played in Vegas, but it was fuddy duddy music.  Today you can tune in the Rolling Stones on any Classic Rock station in the country and it sounds fine.

The only real significant difference between now and 1970 is computers and social media.  That has changed the social dynamic significantly.

RE

If the city has a power outage the store quickly sells out of generators.  The premium generator we sell puts out about 10,000 watts.  A customer told me "that is enough to power a house".  I looked at him and said to myself.  He has several daughters.

It takes two people to move that puppy.  Tesla land has big houses.  Some residents might need two generators.

As far north as you are I am amazed you can get off gas so quick.

You don't need 10Kw to power a house.  3Kw is enough.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jan 22, 2024, 06:32 AMYou don't need 10Kw to power a house.  3Kw is enough.

RE

You forget where I live.  People here do not believe in climate change.  There is a reason.  They have money.  I called it Tesla Land for a reason.

With a heat pump I would need a large size too.

People do not believe in anything unless they have a reason.  And when they want something bad enough the reasons they find depart from reality.

Yea, if you're doing home heating and cooling and cooking and charging a car with electricity, you need a lot more than 3Kw.  I would just buy an emergency propane or kerosene heater and camping stove.  Electricity just for lights, computer and refrigerator.

RE

You would, but the burbs will be buying generators.  It won't be just the Lake Mead area that will be having power interruptions.  Remember the brouhaha when John Denver tried to put in his own underground gas storage tank (https://www.aspentimes.com/news/dispelling-myths-about-john-denvers-gas-tanks/)?

Ahead there will be no such outcry in the new wild west.  And life is good for the generator companies.


As you can see, the recent increase in level is part of normal fluctuation, and in Las Vegas the house always wins over time.  The house being mother nature here.  She rolls the dice every day.  The overall trend is clear.  The law of large numbers will kick in.  Mother natures'  house we can't leave, so she has the time.

Having a 10000 watt or even 20000 watt whole house generator to power a house is the equivalent of having a semi truck in the driveway to pick up milk. Now that is when you have an inverter with a battery bank. Average power use in a big house is roughly 500Whr/ht to 1kWr/hr. You do need that huge generator for the start up load or to run large loads simultaneously. The dedicated loads electrical panel with the critical stuff on it is a better solution. I have a 4500 watt generator at home for charging up batteries in a long outage when the panels can't keep up. It would be powerful enough  to run the heat pump, furnace fan and water pump on its own. I would not run it continuously even if I had no battery back up as the idling fuel use would be too much. Idling is where those inverter generators come in handy as they can idle down to match the load on them while maintaining perfect power then ramp up fast when something bigger comes on. Usually an inverter generator is not ideal for battery charging since you are pushing it heavy the whole time so the fuel saving qualities are not used.

QuoteEquivalent of having a semi truck in the driveway to pick up milk.

That is how some people roll -  Or how Trumpers do prepping.


$2299.99 Was $2499.99 <- New lower price.  9500 Watts

The colors match.

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fth%3Fid%3DOPHS.x5iO1glZa8O6nQ474C474%26o%3D5%26pid%3D21.1&f=1&ipo=products)

None of these people are changing their lifestyle.  They just want to be cozy when the power goes out. 

Talking about batteries to them would be cognitive overload.

Quote from: 18hammers on Feb 16, 2024, 07:36 PMI know I am rolling in power again, fell asleep with the gaming computer running and woke up to still full batteries.

If you're interested in increasing your transportation resilience, you should look into buying one of the cheap mini EV scooters wiith enough range to do your local shopping and errands and see if your solar array has enough power to keep it juiced up for weekly shopping, bank, post office type trips.  You can pick one up for as little as $4000 or so.  Mine has a 40 mile range on a charge and top speed of 15 mph.  I use it to go food shopping at the superstore and drive it right inside the store aisles picking up my food, then back inside my building to my room to unload.

If you can swing $6-10K, you can get an enclosed mini car with a range of 80-120 miles that will do 35 mph.  Too big to actually drive inside a store though.

(https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/green-vehicles-triac-electric-car_100334370_l.jpg)

RE

Quote from: 18hammers on Feb 19, 2024, 10:17 PMThat electric car type is in my future, I am getting there in steps, already have electric bikes, Fat tire electric bikes for the gravel roads around me, have all the spare parts to keep them running. I have started building my own electric velomobile, but not like those flimsy fiberglass ones. Mine will be the velomobile equivalent of a 79 Lincoln continental in comfort. I have the rough frame done, a exact copy of a guy named Lothar from the bike forum's. Not his new design's but of the style he was building back in 2014/15 ish. I have the belly pan to add and a domed top, the top is the bubble canopy off a De Havilland Chipmonk. Not the British canopy, but the Canadian one as shown here,  https://www.vikingair.com/viking-aircraft/dhc-1-chipmunk.

I'd love to see the design, if you could do a drawing or schematic.  I don't see fiberglass as being flimsy, it's generally a lot lighter than working with sheet metal for the body, and unless you have really good metal working experience, it's quite difficult to make the complex curves to make it aerodynamically efficient.  I did some fiberglass boat building, and it's quite easy to get any shape you want out of it.  The strength comes from the frame and chassis underneath the fiberglass.  Steel bicycle tubing makes a great frame, although aluminum tubing saves a lot of weight.  Welding much easier with steel though.

When you start the build, make some how to videos!  I'll put them up on our YouTube channel.  :)

RE

Quote from: RE on Feb 17, 2024, 12:03 AMIf you can swing $6-10K, you can get an enclosed mini car with a range of 80-120 miles that will do 35 mph.  Too big to actually drive inside a store though.
(https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/green-vehicles-triac-electric-car_100334370_l.jpg)
RE

$8k. Had 35k miles on it at purchase, was a lease. Meets all the criteria of being cheap, indestructible and more than enough range in a suburban environment. Total runnings costs to date have been a rear window wiper blade, windshield washing fluid, and a set of tires.

Keep your Tesla's you suckling at the altar of Elon sychophants! I'll take a glorified golf cart with A/C, airbags and free electrons at work!

(https://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1954702.1407776318!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_1020/image.jpg)

Quote from: TDoS on Feb 20, 2024, 08:17 PM$8k. Had 35k miles on it at purchase, was a lease. Meets all the criteria of being cheap, indestructible and more than enough range in a suburban environment. Total runnings costs to date have been a rear window wiper blade, windshield washing fluid, and a set of tires.

Keep your Tesla's you suckling at the altar of Elon sychophants! I'll take a glorified golf cart with A/C, airbags and free electrons at work!

(https://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1954702.1407776318!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_1020/image.jpg)

Nice one. :)  Good choice.

RE

Quote from: RE on Feb 21, 2024, 01:59 AMNice one. :)  Good choice.
RE

For my area perhaps. Cold winters that reduce mile/kwh by -20%, but not that bad, but the traction control on electrics is awful. You get stuck pulling into your driveway if there is a little bit of snow slime there. So not optimal for any snow slick conditions. So perhaps REALLY not optimal for your clime. A 3 season car in Alaska probably.

Quote from: TDoS on Feb 21, 2024, 09:41 AM

Quote from: RE on Feb 21, 2024, 01:59 AMNice one. :)  Good choice.
RE

For my area perhaps. Cold winters that reduce mile/kwh by -20%, but not that bad, but the traction control on electrics is awful. You get stuck pulling into your driveway if there is a little bit of snow slime there. So not optimal for any snow slick conditions. So perhaps REALLY not optimal for your clime. A 3 season car in Alaska probably.

Not a very good choice here for sure, and the penetration so far as I have observed is not very good.  Cold weather battery performance also depends on how cold for how long it actually gets.  Typical winter temps in the lower 48 of 20-30F might give you -20%, but a month solid of sub-zero is another can of tuna entirely.  Heating the cabin while using the vehicle takes a shit load of the juice as well.  We also set a new snowfall record this year, so performance on slippery roads is a big factor.

"3 season" also gives false impression that it would be good 3/4 of the year, but winter conditions exist here in fall and spring as well.  Nov-Mar can all be ugly, so it's almost 1/2 the year it's not a great choice of vehicles.

I doubt they will ever make much sense up here, unless you can afford both types.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jan 22, 2024, 10:57 AMPeople do not believe in anything unless they have a reason.  And when they want something bad enough the reasons they find depart from reality.

It sounds as though you have just provided the causal mechanism for all the peak oil claims of the early 21st century. Bravo Sir!

Quote from: TDoS on Feb 24, 2024, 04:09 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jan 22, 2024, 10:57 AMPeople do not believe in anything unless they have a reason.  And when they want something bad enough the reasons they find depart from reality.

It sounds as though you have just provided the causal mechanism for all the peak oil claims of the early 21st century. Bravo Sir!

I can agree with you.  But claims go both ways.  So which is easier to find?  Someone who says the world is getting warmer because that is what the world wants to do, with nothing to do with humans.  And that wee have oil enough for 500 years.  Or someone who says this shit is going to be so hard to get in twenty years that our society must collapse and people will starve.

Which is the more popular delusion?  If you are having trouble.  I suggest door number one.

M. King Hubbert however is in a class by himself.  He was the leading American geologist.  He also was not wrong.  What blew most peak oil claims up is that the proponents were too attached to a single peak.  They were enamored with the simplicity and did not look deeper.  The truth is that the amount which can be extracted has increased with advancement of technology and the state of the art.  This moves the peak but does not turn the idea of peak oil into bullshit.  Reality actually suggests the ride down the peak will resemble a Seneca cliff.  When the state of the art is lost it does not come back.

A doomer with a scientific bent, and that fully describes me, realizes that things are working out exactly as we thought they would twenty-five years ago.  The timeline is working out different, and that is all.  That does not mean much to me.  Just because people can't predict exactly when something is going to happen does not mean it will not happen.  Collapse happens like the Iceland volcanoes erupt.  You will drive yourself crazy following 'predictions' of eruptions which are sure to happen.  Check every day, and after a few weeks of no eruption you will think the volcano will not erupt.  You have sour grapes.  Then the volcano erupts  Like it did twice last year. 

So it is with collapse.

OK Doomsteaders with Solar PV setups here (NH & 18H), there is now a new "Ultimate" system addition you need to make your setup 100% self-suffient on an annual basis.  In addition to your batts, you need to install an eloctrolyser, compressor, storage tanks for H₂ and a H₂ fuel cell for your LDES seasonal differential.

(https://www.pv-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/MicrosoftTeams-image-36.png)

Bonus here is you can also run your tractor and pickup truck on the hydrogen as well with an ICE that takes H, which I think one that uses wood gas would work with minor modifications. Together with your low power mini EV car or trike scooter, you'll have your transportation needs covered as well as home power needs.

Besides the fuel cell all the rest of the equipment you can put together DIY from off the shelf components available at Home Depot.  For the fuel cell generator, I have found models for around $2500 selling on alibaba, and I think you could do even better than that.

(https://image.made-in-china.com/44f3j00NOfieFmGrHpu/1kw-2kw-3kw-5kw-Hydrogen-Fuel-Cell-System-Pem-Fuel-Cell-Power-Generator.webp)

Be the first on your block to have the Full Monte of Juice Independence!

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/05/01/new-approach-shows-how-to-power-homes-eclusively-with-hydrogen-solar-and-batteries/

New model shows how to power homes exclusively with hydrogen, solar, batteries

RE

The truth about hydrogen has been known for quite a while.  But.............

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Ff4%2F31%2Fc9%2Ff431c95ba419cc62287e693f6f39af4f.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=cc056de5429fb58610871094b98a5979b56386a79031cb885d8678ec100b4b34&ipo=images)

Quote from: K-Dog on May 07, 2024, 01:15 AMThe truth about hydrogen has been known for quite a while.  But.............

Definitely it has its deficiencies.  Vehicles will need to be designed with much larger fuel tanks and will have less range and performance.  The H-ICE variation really is only useful for heavy equipment where you need the torque.  In automobiles, going electric with a fuel cell makes much more sense.  As a fuel for aviation it looks close to useless, except of course if Hindenburgh-phobia can be overcome and we bring back dirigibles.  :)

However, IF enough of the necessary infrastructure could be built for the distribution and IF enough renewable energy production facilities making Green Hydrogen came online and IF enough affordable cars running either on traditional Li-I batts or H fuel cells could be built by say 2050,  then there is a SLIM hope that we can keep the dieoff down to maybe just 50% of the population rather than 95% and have a technofuturistic utopia instead of becoming stone age hunter gatherers after the collapse.  ;D

Think positive!

RE

Quote from: RE on May 07, 2024, 06:18 AM

Quote from: K-Dog on May 07, 2024, 01:15 AMThe truth about hydrogen has been known for quite a while.  But.............

Definitely it has its deficiencies.  Vehicles will need to be designed with much larger fuel tanks and will have less range and performance.  The H-ICE variation really is only useful for heavy equipment where you need the torque.  In automobiles, going electric with a fuel cell makes much more sense.  As a fuel for aviation it looks close to useless, except of course if Hindenburgh-phobia can be overcome and we bring back dirigibles.  :)

However, IF enough of the necessary infrastructure could be built for the distribution and IF enough renewable energy production facilities making Green Hydrogen came online and IF enough affordable cars running either on traditional Li-I batts or H fuel cells could be built by say 2050,  then there is a SLIM hope that we can keep the dieoff down to maybe just 50% of the population rather than 95% and have a technofuturistic utopia instead of becoming stone age hunter gatherers after the collapse.  ;D

Think positive!

RE

Think positive??  You still have not figured out where you are going to get the free juice for making hydrogen.  And when you find your free energy source remember 20% of your power is lost in conversion.  50% if you make it yourself.  But that won't matter because you found free energy.

Robots who mine asteroids for metals can bring some hydrogen back from space too.  The sun is made of it.  A big  spaceship can land on the sun and get some.  We can call her the Solar Express.


Wherever you find your energy source you can use the empty space to sequester CO2.  It the math equations don't balance take psychedelics until it does not matter, when 2 + 2 = 5 you will be in the sweet spot.

And if you solve the technical problems and have your holy dispensation to violate the laws of the universe, inquiring minds would like to know how capitalism which is only a reactionary political force that responds to 'markets' can do the mojo.  Capitalism is incapable of pulling itself up by its bootstraps to create a market where one does not exist.

I suppose the conventional way of developing all this on the public dime, and then giving it to a billionaire for a song or for free. (Russian oligarch style.) could do it.

Hydrogen is a thought-stopper.  Hydrogen tech exists so you don't pay attention and for no other reason.  I say that with confidence because Hydrogen is only a transport mechanism like the wires on a power pole.  Hydrogen is not a source of energy.  You cannot make an energy source because it always takes more energy to make an energy source than you get from using it.  This is a law of the universe and you can't dance around it.

You have to find pure hydrogen for it to be an energy source.  The nearest source of hydrogen is 93 million miles away down a deep gravity well.  Imagining hydrogen as the power of the future is every bit as deluded as thinking you can collect the CO2 in the air and turn it back into gasoline.

Clean CO2, the power of the future.

Scientists at Dreamland University have found a way to turn CO2 in the atmosphere into methane.  This makes CO2 the new freedom molecule.  How is this done?  Professor John Legpuller and his team have ...

Same equation different numbers.

Quote from: K-Dog on May 07, 2024, 09:40 AMYou still have not figured out where you are going to get the free juice for making hydrogen.

From all those wind farms, solar pv farms, hydro plants, tidal generators, geothermal plants & micro nukes they have on the drawing boards.

RE

(https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2024/05/new-way-HYDROGEN.jpg?w=1500&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1)

Despite the problems with lower energy density and greater storage capacity required for Hydrogen powered vehicles identified in the video Kdog dropped on, clearly there is enough room on Garbage Trucks to fill your H tanks and still have enough room left over to haul away the trash.

This may seem small, but there are a LOT of garbage trucks on the road in every community.  They are also commonly used for snow removal.  Obviously also, trucks which haul trash can haul just about anything else that is a solid, so it has even wider application.  Tanker trucks also are a likely application.

Yea, either the carrying capacity of the truck will be a little less or the truck will need to be a little bigger or it will need to refuel more often, but it can still do this essential part of maintaining our current type of civilization. IF (it's a big if) enough of the various renewable energy production facilities are built and if there are enough electrolysis plants built along with them, just about all the transportation currently done using FFs could be done with H.  The main exception is Jet Aircraft, which probably is not practical, but that is not an essential system, except for Billionaires who would commit Seppuku if you took away their private jets since life would not be worth living.

So despite the Negative Waves from Kdog, I remain a strong advocate for H production from renewable energy sources.


https://electrek.co/2024/05/07/americas-first-hydrogen-garbage-truck-arrives-in-las-vegas/

America's first hydrogen garbage truck arrives in Las Vegas