Doomstead

I can't speak for all Ameerikans, but I'm well aware of it.  Back in the 70s & 80s when I did my Summer Euro Tours on the rails. on a motorcycle, in a rent-a-car and on a sailboat,there wasn't a countrry I visited where Yanks weren't the most despised touristas, by far.  I took to sewing an Australian flag on my backback and greeting everyone I met with a "G'day, mate" in a passable Down Under accent and proved my bona fides with my fairly thorough knowledge of Sydney, Bondi Beach and the arcane rules of Australian Rules Football.  I did get caught a couple of times when I had to flash my passport at border crossings, but by then I was friends and my new traveling companions were very sympathetic to my plight of being from the Great Satan.  I can't imagine how bad it must be by now.  I'd be terrified of either being kidnapped, beaten to a bloody pulp or shot on sight.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 01, 2026, 05:56 AMBack in the 70s & 80s when I did my Summer Euro Tours on the rails. on a motorcycle, in a rent-a-car and on a sailboat,there wasn't a countrry I visited where Yanks weren't the most despised touristas, by far.

Wow! Pretty good for a kid wandering Europe on money earned from delivering groceries and whatnot to help support mom because of a dead beat dad. Shit I could barely afford to hitchhike to the Cabinet Mountains of Montana to try out some survivalist skills back then.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 01, 2026, 04:59 PMWow! Pretty good for a kid wandering Europe on money earned from delivering groceries and whatnot to help support mom because of a dead beat dad. Shit I could barely afford to hitchhike to the Cabinet Mountains of Montana to try out some survivalist skills back then.

First trip done on $700 I saved up in HS cutting lawns, shoveling snow and summer jobs.  I flew Freddy Laker  (Better Laker than Never).  2 month Railpass, slept on trains, train stations, beaches, hostels when I needed a shower.  Next 2 trips while making the Big Bucks at Drexel.  Last was my Honeymoon, paid for with my VISA Card, later discharged in Bankruptcy when my Union went on strike for 6 months.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 01, 2026, 10:10 PMNext 2 trips while making the Big Bucks at Drexel. 
RE

What is Drexel?

From Wiki

Drexel Burnham Lambert Inc. was an American multinational investment bank that was forced into bankruptcy in 1990 due to its involvement in illegal activities in the junk bond market

I quit before they got caught.  In my day we were not so stupid.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2026, 06:49 PMFrom Wiki

Drexel Burnham Lambert Inc. was an American multinational investment bank that was forced into bankruptcy in 1990 due to its involvement in illegal activities in the junk bond market

I quit before they got caught.  In my day we were not so stupid.

RE

Is that the days of the cocaine parties and whatnot? I recall you mentioning your exciting youth when working somewhere with bankers and fiscal types.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2026, 07:21 PMIs that the days of the cocaine parties and whatnot? I recall you mentioning your exciting youth when working somewhere with bankers and fiscal types.

Well, I don't think those days ever ended. There's a current series Industry (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7671070/) on HBO based on the current crop of young hotshot City of London traders.  If it is at all an accurate reflection of the current zeitgeist, they are still blowing snow at a white out blizzard pace.  However, yes most certainly on any given day in the bathroom at Drexel for every trader that went in there to take a piss, half a dozen went in to stuff their noses with enough blow to build an igloo.  lol.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWDUbCVZZFbggbA6FchXUQZ7JrQmzf0ZPxgw&s)

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2026, 09:47 PMHowever, yes most certainly on any given day in the bathroom at Drexel for every trader that went in there to take a piss, half a dozen went in to stuff their noses with enough blow to build an igloo.  lol.
RE

Having never worked with scientists, engineers, economists, industry or government types who did this, I am unfamiliar with the ....why? Floor hands and booze I get, smoking, sure, but the big type drugs among those generally considered intelligent? An alien environment to me.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 03, 2026, 02:37 PM

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2026, 09:47 PMHowever, yes most certainly on any given day in the bathroom at Drexel for every trader that went in there to take a piss, half a dozen went in to stuff their noses with enough blow to build an igloo.  lol.
RE

Having never worked with scientists, engineers, economists, industry or government types who did this, I am unfamiliar with the ....why? Floor hands and booze I get, smoking, sure, but the big type drugs among those generally considered intelligent? An alien environment to me.

It's the nature of the personality type driven to do this type of work.  It's fast pace, high stress, high risk, high excitement and very ego driven.  The type of personality that likes to do stuff like rock climbing and base jumping in a wingsuit.  Adrenaline & Endorphin Junkies.


It's also about the social scene around clubs and sex, which requires gobs of money to participate in for most males who are not GQ models. The money buys the coke which you stuff up the girls nose before stuffing the other orifices of their bodies with parts of your anatomy or a variety of vibrating devices available on Amazon.  The only people inhabiting this scene are pro athletes, musicians, actors, IT entrepreneurs, venture capitalist and traders.  Occasionally Pro Poker players.  The last 3 types all are at least 2 sigma smart the athletes 2 sigma physical ability, actors 2 sigma pretty.

RE

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 03, 2026, 02:37 PMFloor hands and booze I get, smoking, sure, but the big type drugs among those generally considered intelligent?

This sentence implies you think people who do "big time" drugs are generally stupid.  I presume BT Drugs besides Coke include Opiates and Amphetamines, not sure if you include Hallucinogenics and Barbituates, Valium, Qualudes etc.

However, regardless of which classes of drugs you perceive to be BT, whether you do them or not has little to do with how smart or stupid you are.  All drugs taken recreationally (as in not taken to remdy an illness) have in common that they are mood altering.  Whether you enjoy altering your moods utilizing pharmaceuticals and how a particular type of drug alters them isn't a function of your intelligence, it's a function of your personality type.  Perhaps you're generally inhibited or "uptight" and the drug loosens you up.  Perhaps your lethargic and it makes you more active.  Perhaps you are a conventional thinker and you get different insights.  whatever the drug does, if you enjoy the experience, you'll continue using the drug.

All drugs you take recreationaly carry the risk of at least a psychological dependency developing, even if they are not physically addicting, but in general the number of people who become dependent on any recreational drug is much smaller than the number who use them  without it significantly affecting their lives.  Alcohol for instance, far more people drink socially than there are alcoholics.  Most of the traders at Drexel who sniffed coke were within reasonable bounds, though a few  lost control and ended up in rehab.  Much fewer than the number doing coke though, maybe 1 in 20 as a WAG.

Anyhow, smart people like drugs pretty much the same way and for the same reasons stupid people do.  The biggest difference is smart people who are also rich can afford to do a lot more of them, so that probably puts them at greater risk of developing a dependency.  Most though are smart enough not to go down that road.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 04, 2026, 12:59 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 03, 2026, 02:37 PMFloor hands and booze I get, smoking, sure, but the big type drugs among those generally considered intelligent?

This sentence implies you think people who do "big time" drugs are generally stupid.

"Stupid" isn't the right pejorative. Part of my off-kilter perspective with folks doing drugs is I don't understand it. The need for whatever it is to NOT be coherent strikes me as...alien.

Quote from: REI presume BT Drugs besides Coke include Opiates and Amphetamines, not sure if you include Hallucinogenics and Barbituates, Valium, Qualudes etc.

If they are needed for getting over surgeries and stuff I understand them. I had a root canal once that required some strong sold on the street for big bucks type drug. Can't say how I felt on it was anything special.

Quote from: REHowever, regardless of which classes of drugs you perceive to be BT, whether you do them or not has little to do with how smart or stupid you are.

Good thing I never said anything like that then.

Quote from: REAll drugs you take recreationaly carry the risk of at least a psychological dependency developing, even if they are not physically addicting, but in general the number of people who become dependent on any recreational drug is much smaller than the number who use them  without it significantly affecting their lives.

I can believe that. Doesn't mean I understand their use however.

Quote from: REAlcohol for instance, far more people drink socially than there are alcoholics.  Most of the traders at Drexel who sniffed coke were within reasonable bounds, though a few  lost control and ended up in rehab.  Much fewer than the number doing coke though, maybe 1 in 20 as a WAG.

Yeah, I don't drink either. I leave that to the folks or like it or need it or whatever.

Quote from: REAnyhow, smart people like drugs pretty much the same way and for the same reasons stupid people do.\
RE

Seems reasonable....not knowing what those reasons are or caring at all. But interestingly, during my time on this globe, I've never had serious problems with sober folks other than maybe a car accident or something. Boozed up or drunk ones? All sorts of trouble, trips to court, firearms being discharged, lawsuits, and so on and forth.

Another one of those weird correlations perhaps, like you never having insurance and getting away with it, and me always having it and occasionally needing it...in some cases because of those stoned, whacked or drunk smart non-smart people.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 04, 2026, 03:35 PMI can believe that. Doesn't mean I understand their use however.

Well, at least part of the reason you can't understand it is because you never tried them.  How would you know if you liked Kidneys if you never tried them?  Even better, how would you know if you liked sex if you never tried it?

As a child, most kids when they see a couple of adults French Kissing are grossed out. "Eeeewwww!"  it seems alien and disgusting.  Later when they mature and get some sexual feelings and try masturbating, they start to understand and it's not so gross anymore.  Drugs are very much the same in terms of the feelings they engender, which is where the phrase "Sex, Drugs & Rock & Roll" comes from.  Generally speaking, if you like Sex & Rock music, you'll like drugs.  Perhaps you don't like sex and/or rock, so drugs have no appeal for you.

Anyhow, whatever the reason is, your inability to understand it probably goes back to childhood and you were grossed out by seeing people doing drugs or getting drunk and you couldn't understand it.  You never got over that initial impression, never tried it and so it hardened into your current opinion, which is rather childish.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 04, 2026, 05:09 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 04, 2026, 03:35 PMI can believe that. Doesn't mean I understand their use however.

Well, at least part of the reason you can't understand it is because you never tried them.

I got some good stuff for the dentistry thing. They helped with pain certainty. But my experience with users is hardly convincing of how great a deal it is. Starting with pops and booze.

Quote from: REHow would you know if you liked Kidneys if you never tried them?  Even better, how would you know if you liked sex if you never tried it?

Good thing I tried a little narcotics. Did good for pain. Made me woozy.

Quote from: REGenerally speaking, if you like Sex & Rock music, you'll like drugs.  Perhaps you don't like sex and/or rock, so drugs have no appeal for you.

Painting with a broad brush, while amusing, doesn't work on me. I am quite thrilled with sex and rock music, although nowadays I mix in everything from classical to country, the newer stuff doesn't do much for me though.

Quote from: REAnyhow, whatever the reason is, your inability to understand it probably goes back to childhood and you were grossed out by seeing people doing drugs or getting drunk and you couldn't understand it.

Methinks you project too much from the perspective of a city kid. Never saw anyone doing drugs, just pops and booze. Occasional moonshine in the holler. 

Quote from: REYou never got over that initial impression, never tried it and so it hardened into your current opinion, which is rather childish.

RE

Oh...I've seen your speculating on all sorts of topics, and how amusingly your use of IQ for actual experience works out sometimes. I loved your La Longue Carabine tales on peakoil.com, from experience gained while at summer camp.

I'll stick with a scientists perspective, thanks.  

I have no idea what "pops" are, but I'll guess they are some variant of opiate.  Far as what Dentists give you for pain, it's usually oxycodone and the dosages they give you aren't enough to get you high.  Usually 5mg.  I take 10mg oxy 3 times a day, I don't get "woozy" at all and it barely scratches the pain.  Currently I'm backing off it because my tolerance is so high and the only way I could bring down the pain is by probably tripling the dose, which the pain doctor would be unwilling to do.  Using opiates for pain management is entirely different from using them to get high.  You need much larger doses and you need to either smoke it (opium) or take it intravenously.

Far as getting woozy goes, that's an effect of low doses of opiates taken orally, not unlike the effect of alcohol.  Totally different than the effects of Cocaine, which sharpens your senses rather than dulling them.  Way, way different than hallucinogens, which make you experience things more vividly as well as experience what is going on inside your own unconscious mind, which normally you can't experience.

Not sure how a scientists perspective on drugs is any different than anyone else's, since many scientists use them, probably in similar numbers to the rest of the population.  I know many doctors do.  Why do they do them?  Because they tried them and they enjoyed the experience.  Opiates might not be your cup of tea, I don't like them either besides for the pain management aspect.  Cocaine though is very enjoyable for me and many others who can afford it.  I'm sure Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos sniff plenty. lol.  Certainly popular on Wall St and the City of London.  Hallucinogens also a blast, and much cheaper.  Anyhow, as a scientist, you have no point of reference on them without trying them.  You can't understand it by observing other people taking them, any more than you can understand why another person likes the smell of a particular perfume you don't like.  The sensory experience is specific to the individual, you can't know another person's experience, only your own.  Until you try it, it's a complete black box.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 05, 2026, 09:05 AMFar as what Dentists give you for pain, it's usually oxycodone and the dosages they give you aren't enough to get you high.  Usually 5mg.  I take 10mg oxy 3 times a day, I don't get "woozy" at all and it barely scratches the pain.

You are in a situation where drugs, and the quantities of them are certainly useful. Never said they wwren't useful in the right situations, only that I don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Quote from: REWay, way different than hallucinogens, which make you experience things more vividly as well as experience what is going on inside your own unconscious mind, which normally you can't experience.

So some folks take drugs to hallucinate in ways that just being a normal alkie or junkie can't experience? I know exactly how to experience things vividly without drugs, but it usually involves racetracks, or adrenaline in some way. Always find the time dilation feeling to be really interesting. 

Quote from: RE

Quote from: RENot sure how a scientists perspective on drugs is any different than anyone else's, since many scientists use them, probably in similar numbers to the rest of the population.

Could be. After a career with them I've never seen it, but it is possible.

Quote from: REUntil you try it, it's a complete black box.
RE

I agree that those lacking experience with a thing, a feeling, a drug, a topic, can't say they have experienced it or maybe even understand it. Its exactly why PhD's can't get peak oil right, or Joe Average thinks they can do an appendectomy in a pinch, or experience on a rifle range as a child qualifies someone as a sniper in survival situations decades later.

Still, some folks think that they understand a topic or skill with no experience.

I will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass. 

Some people don't care if they are hated.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2026, 05:09 PMI don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Cocaine doesn't make you incoherent, in fact it increases clarity and your speed of thinking. Dr. Williiam Halstead who revolutionized surgery was a coke addict, Steve Jobs said LSD was "one of the two or three most important things I have done in life.", Freud considered cocaine a "wonder drug", and Thomas Edison was addicted to Vin Mariani, a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves.  As I said before, your perception of all drugs as having the same neurological effects as alcohol is completely wrong.

QuoteSo some folks take drugs to hallucinate in ways that just being a normal alkie or junkie can't experience?

Yes. See the above.

QuoteI will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass.

Far as LSD goes for you, that's probably a good idea.  Looking into your unconscious mind would likely lead you to a very bad trip.  You might discover what a complete asshole you are.


RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2026, 12:01 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2026, 05:09 PMI don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Cocaine doesn't make you incoherent, in fact it increases clarity and your speed of thinking.

I'll take your word for it. And that a highly addictive drug has that capability as well.

Quote from: REDr. Williiam Halstead who revolutionized surgery was a coke addict, Steve Jobs said LSD was "one of the two or three most important things I have done in life.", Freud considered cocaine a "wonder drug", and Thomas Edison was addicted to Vin Mariani, a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves.  As I said before, your perception of all drugs as having the same neurological effects as alcohol is completely wrong.

Well, with all these famous enthusiasts what could be wrong with it? I wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it? How enlightened they felt, and wonderful, prior to...you know....dying from it.

I will grant that those who enjoy doing addictive and occasionally outright lethal drugs might..indeed...enjoy them. For some strange reason, maybe because we were lacking folks like your famous examples in the holler, they all just seemed to be stoned halfwits, dropouts and generally undesireable. Maybe there is a difference between backwoods dopers and the high and mighty kind that live in the cities?

Quote from: RE

QuoteI will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass.

Far as LSD goes for you, that's probably a good idea.

Far as ANY of them go, it is probably a good idea. Dad was a mean drunk, and as far as enlightenment through drugs, I've been quite happy with mountaintops, racetracks, and the occasional grand western vista.

Quote from: RELooking into your unconscious mind would likely lead you to a very bad trip.  You might discover what a complete asshole you are.
RE

That is a possibility. Or it might reveal the attitudes and capabilities that landed Joe Nobody from the holler where I am in life. Perhaps an asshole, as are you I would venture, but also someone who has arrived where I am today. As opposed to where some "enlightened" others have arrived. Not you of course, but those dead bodies left behind after folks are overly "enlightened" through the injestion of various chemical compounds.  To each their own is my motto.

Or you could take a trip on 50x Salvia and after you look down on the lizard skin covering your hand you can have a conversation with god.  No fooling him.  No way.  You might feel the life of insects even through the walls of the house.  Little sparks of life everywhere around you.  You can feel the presence of the demon in the lake who has no power over you.  And you can do all that in 15 minutes.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 06, 2026, 06:40 AMI wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it?

6000 people/year die in motorcycle crashes too.  At least with coke, it's only your own stupidity that causes the death.  On a bike, you risk other people's stupidity causing it.  In any event, all worthwhile things carry some risk.

Far as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Anyhow, as I said earlier, your attitude stems from childhood.  It's clearly a reaction to having an alcoholic father.  You never got over that.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2026, 11:38 AMOr you could take a trip on 50x Salvia and after you look down on the lizard skin covering your hand you can have a conversation with god.  No fooling him.  No way.  You might feel the life of insects even through the walls of the house.  Little sparks of life everywhere around you.  You can feel the presence of the demon in the lake who has no power over you.  And you can do all that in 15 minutes.

Is a drug induced hallucination of having a conversation with God...real? But I understand drugs helping someone to believe it might be. In 15 minutes at Laguna Seca I can do maybe 14.2 laps and see God, watch my life flash before my eyes half a dozen times, feel every bump in the asphalt in turn 6 on my left knee, launch my stomache into my throat entering the Corkscrew, and not give a crap about insects or the walls of my house. No demons involved in this high at all.....just a pure celebration of life in an all natural way. Maybe folks take drugs to see God because doing it my way requires, you know, DOING something other than popping a pill?

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2026, 11:52 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 06, 2026, 06:40 AMI wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it?

6000 people/year die in motorcycle crashes too.

Indeed. And car crashes. And falling down stairs. Drowning. Robbery gone bad. Pulling a gun on the wrong person (seen this one before). The causes of death are indeed legion. But none of these are voluntary acts(well, pulling a gun on someone might be). Taking drugs to get high and dying is a choice. Robbers don't plan on dying in the act of robbing...but it happens. The suicidal might drive a car knowing they plan on using it to kill themselves, but normal folk don't. The suicidal might swim knowing they can't...and drown. Pulling a gun on the wrong person is a voluntary act....that can turn out poorly depending on who you are pulling on.

Come on RE, you aren't required to demonstrate that statistics can lie, and liars use statistics in front of someone who can spot either or both a mile away.

Quote from: REAt least with coke, it's only your own stupidity that causes the death.

If by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Quote from: REOn a bike, you risk other people's stupidity causing it.

That is called life. Be it an idiot cager killing you, or getting hit by space junk falling from the sky. In neither case is it you deciding that "Hey! Lets do some cool drugs today and hope I don't overdose, or my dealer didn't substitute in a little too much drain cleaner to the mix". It isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Quote from: REIn any event, all worthwhile things carry some risk.

LIFE carrys risk, and is indeed worthwhile. And then there are all things we do in life that raise or lower our chances of making it to the average or median age before croaking more naturally.

Hunter Thompson and reaching the finish line....best quote ever. He got it. Drugs, motorcycles, parachuting without a parachute, whatever. We all choose our brand of risk, but I think Hunter had the idea right.

So I let the drug users use drugs. And I hope that I don't low side in Turn 6 at Laguna and slide off the cliff awaiting on the outside of the corner.

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Outstanding! I imagine that is why it is legal in all 50 states. Oops...wait....for some strange reason....it isn't. You make it sound so safe....I wonder why it isn't legal? All those straight laced folks just being a drag on a happy go lucky drug culture types?

Quote from: REAnyhow, as I said earlier, your attitude stems from childhood.  It's clearly a reaction to having an alcoholic father.  You never got over that.
RE

Thank you for that Mr Dr of Psychology RE. I remember when you tried to play geologist once, it was a riot. At least now with AI you could probably do better I bet. I might agree with your amateur shrink routine though, but only because I do analytics for a living, and logically, it seems reasonable that some of my life choices and current behavior stem from childhood events. I imagine a Shrink AI would say the same thing. 

But I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper. So it isnt' apropos anyway, unless I just wanted to be some alky in the bag all the time. Which obviously I didn't.

So while maybe I can agree that a little of some part of each of us probably can be traced back that far, it doesn't necessary express itself as much as some might think. But a little...somewhere...somehow..maybe. 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 08, 2026, 05:34 PMIf by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Stupid is not knowing what dosage has potential to kill you.  Cocaine doesn't corrupt your ability to know that.  Heroin might, but if it made you that stupid, you already took too much, so you were stupid before you loaded the syringe.  In any event, Heroin is not on the list of drugs I find worthwhile.

QuoteIt isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Ever listen to the list of potential side effects of FDA approved drugs?  Not even taken at overdose levels, DEATH is often on the list.

QuoteHunter Thompson and reaching the finish line....best quote ever. He got it. Drugs, motorcycles, parachuting without a parachute, whatever. We all choose our brand of risk, but I think Hunter had the idea right.

(https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-mind-body-must-be-subjected-to-extreme-stimulus-by-means-of-drugs-music-hunter-s-thompson-69-7-0740.jpg)

QuoteBut I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper.

Alcohol is a drug and it is physically addictive.  It's just a more commonly used form of "dope" that's legal.  Nothing wrong with you decision not to use drugs, but your attitude is reflected in your writing about the reasons why.  Your use of pejoratives like "doper" and "alky" demonstrates disrespect toward those who do choose to use them.

Quote from: TDoS

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Outstanding! I imagine that is why it is legal in all 50 states. Oops...wait....for some strange reason....it isn't. You make it sound so safe....I wonder why it isn't legal? All those straight laced folks just being a drag on a happy go lucky drug culture types?

Actually, it's currently being tested  for use in relieving symptoms of depression.



RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 12:38 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 08, 2026, 05:34 PMIf by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Stupid is not knowing what dosage has potential to kill you.

Or not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Quote from: K-Dog

QuoteIt isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Ever listen to the list of potential side effects of FDA approved drugs?  Not even taken at overdose levels, DEATH is often on the list.

I am familiar with over the counter med consequences. And I do listen to the potential side effects, as do my doctors. They moved my medication for high blood pressure around just 6 months ago, watching out for potential side effects related to my kidneys.

How many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

Quote from: RE

QuoteBut I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper.

Alcohol is a drug and it is physically addictive.

Indeed. Such is the way of drugs.  Good thing I have a medical professional keeping an eye on mine!

Quote from: REBut your attitude is reflected in your writing about the reasons why.  Your use of pejoratives like "doper" and "alky" demonstrates disrespect toward those who do choose to use them.

Indeed it does. Very observant. Just as I use the pejorative "cager" for those who are. And "Happy McPeaksters" for those who don't know geology.

You've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.
[and] Actually, it's currently being tested  for use in relieving symptoms of depression.

Outstanding! And with experience and degrees in and around geology and engineering, practical experience using both, a professional understanding of statistics and probabalistic modeling, peak oilers would never have been misled by various internet experts and PhDs. Give me some more time, maybe I could figure out LSD as well.

But until it is figured out...it isn't figured out. Like peak oil.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 05:34 AMOr not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Exactly!  Thus drugs perform an important social function.  The overdosers win a Darwin Award. 😀

(https://images.teepublic.com/derived/production/designs/58490162_0/1710561364/i_p:c_191919,wmk,s_630,q_90.jpg)

QuoteHow many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

You really need a doctor for this?  Doctors just follow political guidelines with Schedule A illegal drugs.  If you wanna understand the interactions, you need to know the biochemistry of how the drug works.

QuoteIndeed. Such is the way of drugs.  Good thing I have a medical professional keeping an eye on mine!

See the above.  Doctors just tell you taking illegal drugs are bad for you.  Then they go home and take them themselves. lol.

QuoteYou've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

I look down on Stupid People, not Drug Users.  The two sets are not identical.

QuoteBut until it is figured out...it isn't figured out. Like peak oil.

You have been warned before about dragging Peak Oil into unrelated discussions.  I gave you a pass on this post, next time I will trash it.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 12:59 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 05:34 AMOr not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Exactly!  Thus drugs perform an important social function.  The overdosers win a Darwin Award. 😀

While something of a dystopian view....I can't say I disagree with it. I believe in personal freedom, and that includes folks doing whatever stupid shit they want even if it kills them.

Quote from: RE

QuoteHow many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

You really need a doctor for this?

I don't. But approximately half of humans are below average in intelligence and there is an argument to be made that they certainly do. 

QuoteDoctors just follow political guidelines with Schedule A illegal drugs.  If you wanna understand the interactions, you need to know the biochemistry of how the drug works.

Half of humans are below average in intelligience, meaning they can't necessarily read, let alone even know what biochemistry is, let alone chemical interactions.

Quote from: RE

QuoteYou've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

I look down on Stupid People, not Drug Users.  The two sets are not identical.

You know what a Venn diagram is....want to bet an overlap of 70% between stupid and drug users wouldn't be a surprise? So when looking down on stupid people....well.....do I actually have to say it?

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 03:28 PMYou know what a Venn diagram is....want to bet an overlap of 70% between stupid and drug users wouldn't be a surprise?

It's probably higher than that.  Probably 90% of people who take drugs are stupid.  So are 90% of the people who don't take drugs.  Being of average intelligence is still pretty fucking stupid.    As criteria for identifying stupid people, drug use fails because the vast majority of Homo Saps are stupid.  So making such a bet would itself be stupid, it's not a good discriminator.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 07:11 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 03:28 PMYou know what a Venn diagram is....want to bet an overlap of 70% between stupid and drug users wouldn't be a surprise?

It's probably higher than that.  Probably 90% of people who take drugs are stupid.

Well hot damn. We actually can agree on something. I say we start a clock, using a calendar most likely, and see what the frequency of it happening might be. A year? A decade? Who knows!

Quote from: RESo are 90% of the people who don't take drugs.

Nonsense. That is just your ego speaking. You are on the high side of average, but you aren't the only one with functioning neurons at a level beyond that of Joe Average. And then some. I'll include even K-Dog in here on general principles based on nothing more than my personal experience dealing with EE's.

Quote from: REBeing of average intelligence is still pretty fucking stupid. 

To folks on the high side of the distribution, sure it looks that way. And those of us on that high side find other ways to differentiate ourselves from even that herd. I am quite familiar with how that works, if only because I can name the folks, and their qualifications, of those who can do it to me.

Quote from: REAs criteria for identifying stupid people, drug use fails because the vast majority of Homo Saps are stupid.  So making such a bet would itself be stupid, it's not a good discriminator.
RE

Again, a personal perspective based on relative differences. My preference runs towards demonstrable critical thinking in real time, internal consistency in thought processes, the usual stuff. My preferences for sorting the herd, might not do yours.

However, as I said before (on behalf of those of us on the high side of the herd) it turns out that destroying multiple decades of accepted research on some topic can sure accelerate others noticing. Don't even give a crap what your education is at that point. But, amusingly, they tag you with the Piled Higher and Deeper moniker in front of your name anyway. 

To each their own.

QuoteI'll include even K-Dog in here on general principles.

That's big of you, would you like thanks?  If you want thanks keep trying.

Smart people will experiment with mind altering substances.  Smart people however will not continue to do so after the novelty fades.  Smart people know there is no 'there' there after initially experiencing the altered mind perspective.  It becomes an intense nothingburger in a way.

There are lessons to be learned by the mind altering experience, but the truth is there is really not much there to learn after you break on through to the other side.  A novice learns that perceptions can't be counted on.  Perhaps you learn to beware of absolute truth, truth is indeed out there, but that does not mean you have the ability to know it.  It may induce humility in the right person.  Not to be confused with the person who needs it. 

That is a valuable lesson which substances can indeed induce.  You learn that you are not the center of the universe.  That is a good thing.  There are a handful of very profound insights which may be revealed to an altered mind.  But seeds do not grow on barren ground, and the lessons depend on the novelty, which is soon gone. 

Continued drug use embraces narcissism.  It is high on the self-indulgence list.  It is as 'high' on it as you can get.  Pun intended.  Some lessons once learned should not need repetition.

An altered mind can be a useful pit stop, but it is not a vocation.

People without ambition will not agree.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 10, 2026, 06:08 PMNonsense. That is just your ego speaking. You are on the high side of average, but you aren't the only one with functioning neurons at a level beyond that of Joe Average. And then some. I'll include even K-Dog in here on general principles based on nothing more than my personal experience dealing with EE's.

I never claimed to be the only one with functional synapses.  Nor is the precise percentage of stupid  people important.  Relative to me, it's a lot higher than 90%.😁  Relative to you, it might be 70%. lol. The salient point is my experience has been that stupid people are randomly distributed between drug users and non-users.  I encounter them in equal frequency regardless of their choice.  Here, we are all smart, most of us are drug users of one sort or another.  AFAIK, you are the only one who abstains from both drugs and alcohol.  This tells us nothing about stupid people, since none are represented here.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 10, 2026, 07:28 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 10, 2026, 06:08 PMNonsense. That is just your ego speaking. You are on the high side of average, but you aren't the only one with functioning neurons at a level beyond that of Joe Average. And then some. I'll include even K-Dog in here on general principles based on nothing more than my personal experience dealing with EE's.

I never claimed to be the only one with functional synapses.

True, you do something more interesting. If you think it, you being above average intelligence, you consider your statements on the topic to be as informed as someone who has done it. I can see it working in some specialties. But certainly not others. Example...."As a child I learned to shoot a gun at camp....now I will explain sniper tactics to survivalists at peakoil.com". You were quite specific in the hows and whys of using a firearm against non-paper targets. At specific long ranges. Someone with real life experience at such things might find such an assumption of imbued real world performance from some practice as a child as....an interesting perspective.

It isn't always about functioning synapses. It is about projecting a small, perhaps barely related experience, to mastery. Very intelligent people do this all the time and can get away with it. Until they run into a person who has earned their mastery the real way. By doing it.

Shooting is a perishable skill. I know that from experience. But as I mentioned earlier (perhaps erased, but it was during the Charlie Kirk posting and someone's comment on the precision necessary to make such an easy shot and I mentioned my return to long range shooting) the experience is still experience. If the mind is still there, even if the skills have faded, the experience sticks. Sometimes, so does the skill itself.

Same with claimed surgical skills. Motorcycle skills from riding around NYC and hanging out with folks pretending to be Hardly Ableson bad asses, or Ricky Racers perhaps?

You have provided many examples of your deductive reasoning, obviously.

Quote from: RENor is the precise percentage of stupid  people important.  Relative to me, it's a lot higher than 90%.😁

You act like you are alone at that level. You aren't. 90th percentile on the last normal distribution I checked only  equates to maybe an IQ of 120. You sure you don't want to change that percentile? 😂I would have guessed that you would give yourself more credit....like what my sister and I have at least. She stayed in the holler, married a good guy, and never used it in the least. Her older brother did...better.

Quote from: RERelative to you, it might be 70%. lol.

lol indeed, let me know how far off AI is.

On a standard intelligence (IQ) distribution, the 90th percentile corresponds to an IQ score of approximately 120. This means an individual with this score performs better than 90% of the general population.

Quote from: REThe salient point is my experience has been that stupid people are randomly distributed between drug users and non-users.

Could be. I can't refute your experience with using drugs or the kind of people you were using with.

Quote from: REI encounter them in equal frequency regardless of their choice.

I encounter them at low frequency if at all. I attribute this discrepancy to the difference between the kind of people we associate with.

Quote from: REHere, we are all smart, most of us are drug users of one sort or another.  AFAIK, you are the only one who abstains from both drugs and alcohol.  This tells us nothing about stupid people, since none are represented here.
RE

Indeed. I will agree that as we both, aside from this site, have hung out with different folks and different classes of people over our lives. And have developed different ideas on drug users. You, as someone familiar with such folks and are around them far more than I am, see them evenly distributed between smart and stupid. I, as a non-user....don't see users much....but I also don't see stupid folks very often. Or users. So my perspective is different. Correlations matter in statistics.

A selection bias problem perhaps. I would recommend improving the clientele you hang with, and seeing if the ratio changes to a ratio more similar to mine. I understand that you are limited in this regard however.

Another theory is that users naturally mix with other users. You mix with users, and see users as evenly distributed between smart or less smart. I was always a bummer at parties in high school or college because I didn't drink. Or smoke. Or do drugs or whatever. I rode motorcycles. Went to the range. And then discovered later in life that the folks I was learning from, then teaching, and then doing state of the art research for, were not users, and were generally all quite smart. As long as we can agree that the award of Piled higher and Deeper is some indicator of above average intelligence above the norm anyway.

No, I'm not 90th percentile, but I do credit people who are 90th percentile as being reasonably smart.  Actual percentile?  99.97, 3 sd. Statistically, ~3 in 10,000 people are smarter than me.  I've met a few in my life, not many.  I make no claim of mastery of any topic, but I know a lot about many topics, make connections others don't and I can generally find solutions to problems other people find intractable.

On this particular topic, besides being  smart, I have a pretty thorough experience also. both my own and acquaintance with others.  So I think I can justifiably say I present a well informed opinion.

RE

I think I am a mere centurion.  One in a hundred.  The dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 12, 2026, 10:51 AMI think I am a mere centurion.  One in a hundred.  The dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

Plenty smart enough,  and you have the added and VERY important quality of having CFS(Common Fucking Sense), which many very smart people lack.  1:100 puts your IQ at 135, which I would guess to be about right.  I come in at ~155 on Wechsler (most common), although I have tested higher on MABII.  I don't buy scores over 160 on any test, there aren't enough people who score that high to properly norm the test.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 11, 2026, 07:02 PMI make no claim of mastery of any topic, but I know a lot about many topics, make connections others don't and I can generally find solutions to problems other people find intractable.

I don't doubt this statement. I really liked your explanation of genes previously. Perhaps the only difference between us comes down to a peculiar characteristic.....an ability perhaps, as opposed to raw intelligence.

I make a claim of being a polymath only within a small set of topics, make connections others can't and I can generally find solutions to problems that other people find intractable. I then deliver a result. Results, as it turns out, can be quite lucrative. A small difference really, but on such small things can a life turn.

Quote from: REOn this particular topic, besides being  smart, I have a pretty thorough experience also both my own and acquaintance with others.  So I think I can justifiably say I present a well informed opinion.
RE

We are all older here, and have pretty thorough experience, on our own, and via acquitance with others. I would consider your opinion generally more informed than not (dependning on topic), yes. Particularly if the obvious biases are removed, but that can be done relatively easily, and they aren't as hard coded into your doom views as most.

I can present  well informed opinion. In my world it is mostly referred to as analysis. Sometimes I choose to make them more than well informed. Those are designed to be irrefutable. Such is science.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 12, 2026, 10:51 AMI think I am a mere centurion.  One in a hundred.  The dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

Did you think this before or after consuming mind altering hallucinogens?

I didn't have any trouble producing results back in the day.  I just didn't like the job.  I didn't like academia much either, I was just good at it.  Mainly, I didn't like the society, from the time I was old enough to have 2 sets of friends, the boys I played futbol on Ipanema Beach with from the favela and the boys I went to school with from the FSoA Embassy diplomatic corps.  I was already a socialist by the time I returned from Rio at 10.  I positively hated Nixon and Vietnam.  I've been disgusted by the politics, consumerism and the plastic world of Big Yellow Taxi my whole life.  So I dropped out of it and did what I liked.  I coached a lot of good gymmies along the way.  It was fun.


RE

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 12, 2026, 03:30 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 12, 2026, 10:51 AMI think I am a mere centurion.  One in a hundred.  The dirt on the bottom of a shoe.

Did you think this before or after consuming mind altering hallucinogens?

The fish oil has probably done more good for my thinking than anything else.  Upgraded cognitive abilities.  Send me the T-shirt.










(https://media.tenor.com/-6oshQCPS8oAAAAM/genius-zeus-hoverers-zeus.gif)

Quote from: RE on Jun 12, 2026, 04:07 PMI didn't have any trouble producing results back in the day.  I just didn't like the job.  I didn't like academia much either, I was just good at it.

Oh...there are results, and then there are results. And me, I can't do academia. Research no problem, but academia is something else entirely. It is one of the reasons I find it so amusing when, based on results, they automatically think I am one of them. Doesn't take much to dupe them. 

Quote from: REI was already a socialist by the time I returned from Rio at 10.

Well now that is interesting. Did you know at that age the word for what you were, or did that come later.

Quote from: REI positively hated Nixon and Vietnam.  I've been disgusted by the politics, consumerism and the plastic world of Big Yellow Taxi my whole life.

Instilled by an early family life among the well off?

Quote from: RESo I dropped out of it and did what I liked.  I coached a lot of good gymmies along the way.  It was fun.
RE

We each measure our results in different ways. I never dropped out, arguably, I never entered anything to drop out of.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 12, 2026, 09:55 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 12, 2026, 03:30 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 12, 2026, 10:51 AMDid you think this before or after consuming mind altering hallucinogens?

The fish oil has probably done more good for my thinking than anything else.  Upgraded cognitive abilities.  Send me the T-shirt.

I can't say I know who much about how to upgrade cognitive abilities, other than the usual, learn stuff, learn more stuff piled on top of the older stuff, and arrive somewhere you never expected. Once the pile is high enough, well, go ride a motorcycle to relax.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 13, 2026, 06:09 AMWell now that is interesting. Did you know at that age the word for what you were, or did that come later.

You're joking, right?  I had a college level reading ability in the 4th grade.  I already knew the history of socialism in the FSoA, I knew about the union busting, the Pinkertons, the works.  You probably don't remember those years because you were still playing Cowboys & Indians and reading comic books, but the early 60s was the era of the Folk Music explosion with guys like Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie and of course Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Joan Baez.  In those days before Rock got so loud, you could still understand the lyrics and sing along.  By the time I was 5 at the Unitarian retreat Homestead in Upstate NY we would sit around the campfire and sing the songs.  I knew all the words by heart.  Here's a favorite with Joan singing one of Phil's masterpieces.


Here's Natalie Merchant singing Woody Guthrie.


I knew which side I was on before you could read.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 13, 2026, 10:32 AMYou're joking, right?  I had a college level reading ability in the 4th grade.  I already knew the history of socialism in the FSoA, I knew about the union busting, the Pinkertons, the works.  You probably don't remember those years because you were still playing Cowboys & Indians and reading comic books....

How amusing. No, I wasn't joking. Are you? A child reading at the college level isn't a big deal....maybe turning intelligence to political thought at that age is weirdly intellectual for a 4th grader. And of course I remember those years, while you were learning politics, I had a rifle in my hand hunting squirrels and rabbits. While you LEARNED...stuff...I...DID stuff. Food was very important in the holler. Knowing the forest, the animals, obtaining protein with a rifle and traps, etc etc.

I have always been amused back in old doomer times when folks went on endlessly about hunting and fishing as a solution to the collapse (pick any of your favorites you, or them, have proclaimed in this century that didn't happen) and people just seemed to not understand anything about old school self reliance. Maybe there are more around of you than you think, all interested in politics by the time they were 10 years old?

Quote from: REHere's a favorite with Joan singing one of Phil's masterpieces.
Here's Natalie Merchant singing Woody Guthrie.

I knew which side I was on before you could read.

Socialism isn't a side. It is a political concept. You might have known your politics before I could read, but I could feed a family of 3 and my grandmother before you fired your first rifle at summer camp.

"Each experience in your life was absolutely necessary in order to have gotten you to the next place, and the next place, up to this very moment."

I would venture that ultimately, our experiences and capabilities in life delivered unto us quite different results. 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 13, 2026, 05:54 PMSocialism isn't a side.

What planet are you living on?

(https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-there-s-class-warfare-all-right-but-it-s-my-class-the-rich-class-that-s-making-war-and-warren-buffett-37-48-32.jpg)

QuoteI would venture that ultimately, our experiences and capabilities in life delivered unto us quite different results. 

Yup. You ended up on the Dark Side as a Lord of the Sith, I ended up a Jedi Knight.

(https://i.redd.it/fpm5u9htuwhz.jpg)

RE