Doomstead

Class warfare by the entitled prevents the evolution of anything socially sustainable.  Noam would agree with my statement.  Chris would absolutely.  If you are reading this you probably understand what I mean.  But America lives on a diet of mass media fast food.  The clicks on mass media dwarfs clicks made by people who look at any alternative news.  So study of Google clicks reveal.   American mass media is nothing but corporate state propaganda.

The American people are drones.

You are correct, IMO. Corporate media exists to provide space for a vigorous debate between the center-right (representing the left), and the fascist right. No one holding views anywhere to the left of hunting the homeless for sport is welcome in mainstream media.

Quote from: K-Dog on May 18, 2023, 11:26 AM

I agree with Noam and Chris Hedges on the state of American Politics.

Class warfare by the entitled prevents the evolution of anything socially sustainable.  Noam would agree with my statement.

Okay..."by the entitled". Let us put a figure on these "entitled". How about we start with 7 figure net worth? Now, the interesting thing about that number (in the not so recent past folks being a "millionaire" was quite the deal) is that it includes people on this board...and more likely....Noam himself.

He apparently can sustain homes in multiple countries, and rent private jets when he needs them for health reasons according to this article. (https://apnews.com/article/noam-chomsky-hospitalized-stroke-recovery-brazil-4fb6782abf6a7b6d0bbb30cefa05cede). Plus the wife figures a place on the beach might suit him as well, a pleasant place to convelesce. She didn't say if she was buying or renting, but really, how much real estate do a pair of near centenarians need? One in each country of origin seems reaosnable.

The question is, do any of us entitled folks, or Noam, commit class warfare? I am unfamiliar with committing class warfare. I'll bet K-Dog, supporting the working man as he does, doesn't. And as K-Dog points out, he is certain Choam doesn't. So why are some of who are entitled, NOT committing class warefare?

Because the statement "class warfare by the entitled" appears pretty inclusive. Perhaps 7 figure net worth individuals aren't REALLY entitled....which makes sense from the perspective of those of us who fit the bill. Want to bet those getting by on 30 hours a week of just above minimum wage might think differently as to exactly who is entitled? And that answer would be different compared to the entitled here?

I would say if you have accumulated "Generational Wealth".  That would be enough so if you set up a Trust Fund for each of your kids with "safe" investments with an annualized rate of return of ~5% above an average inflation rate of 3%, it would provide an income high enough to pay full tuition at Harvard + rent a comfortable off campus apt in Cambridge and pay premiums on a comprehensive medical insurance plan beyond the university plan, + vehicle and related expenses and enough walking around money so you could hang with all the rest of the Trust Fund babies at St. Andrews.  In today's money, I'd put the capital requirement for each Trust Fund to be around $10-20M.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 04, 2025, 11:45 PMI would say if you have accumulated "Generational Wealth".  That would be enough so if you set up a Trust Fund for each of your kids with "safe" investments with an annualized rate of return of ~5% above an average inflation rate of 3%, it would provide an income high enough to pay full tuition at Harvard + rent a comfortable off campus apt in Cambridge and pay premiums on a comprehensive medical insurance plan beyond the university plan, + vehicle and related expenses and enough walking around money so you could hang with all the rest of the Trust Fund babies at St. Andrews.  In today's money, I'd put the capital requirement for each Trust Fund to be around $10-20M.

RE

Based on what Elon was able to do with $32k his father gave him, I think the 7 figure number would suffice. With 7 figures, parents could seed their children with $30-$40k, and that and talent obviously can result into things like the world's richest guy.

Once you have a guaranteed income of sufficient size without working where you can hang with age-mates from the same class at parties in NY, the Hamptons, etc, you get offered opportunities and can pitch ideas to other people with access to capital to invest.  In his great novel Cryptonomicon, Neal Stephenson called it "Fuck You" money.

There's a good series on Prime called The Gilded Age about how this worked in the late 1800s during the Robber Baron era.  It focuses on George Russell, a railroad and banking Tycoon and his family and the social circle in NYC and Newport in those years.  It was very much the same in the 70s when I was at Columbia.  I am sure it's the same today.


RE

Quote from: RE on May 05, 2025, 06:20 PMThere's a good series on Prime called The Gilded Age about how this worked in the late 1800s during the Robber Baron era.  It focuses on George Russell, a railroad and banking Tycoon and his family and the social circle in NYC and Newport in those years.  It was very much the same in the 70s when I was at Columbia.  I am sure it's the same today.
RE

I believe you. Not because you said it, but because it has been going on since the dawn of time I imagine. Humans form connections, social groups, and one of them can be the athletes in the high school, and the rich kids, and so on and so forth. And those who aren't in those groups try to get in, a tough game to play when it comes to billionaire family status I imagine.

So those who aren't in the popular kids club resent it.

So Elon knew people after he took his dads $32G and turned it into where he is today? I imagine there are plenty of others, but the social circle aspect is difficult to quantify, as people are still people, and a rich moron is still a rich moron, and isn't guarenteed an automatic in.

The Menendez brothers spring to mind.

Just because these social circles CAN benefit those of the right caliber mindset doesn't mean it is a given.

Your father was quite a titan of some sort, but he didn't appear to pass on his privileges to you, you mentioned he stiffed you on paying for college. That is undoubtedly as common a story as success.

Elon made it work. Not all of them do. But you don't go from $32G to where Elon is just by knowing people. 

QuoteBut you don't go from $32G to where Elon is just by knowing people.

No, it helps to be a thief.

Trust Fund babies come in all flavors.  Some multiply up the money after they hit 21 and get contrl of the money, a few lose it all making bad investments of gambling, hookers and drugs.  Most just live comfortably and have some kind of job in a field that interests them.

The opportunities for multiplying the money come hobknobbing in the social circle.  Iff you watch the Gilded Age it portrays this very well.  There are also fortune hunters of both sexes hanging about trying to marry into money.

As I mentioned before, I was out of this circle once my parents divorced as a child, and my dad didn't even kick in tuition much less leave me a trust fund.  I did know a few of them though.  I was good friends with Rick MacArthur when we both were editors of the Spectator.  He just eased into the Publisher spot of Harper's Magazine.  Writes on politics.

Once you're not worried about your daily bread, you're free to pursue your ideas.  When you hit on a good one, you talk to your own dad or best friend's dad who introduces you to a banker and poof they set up an IPO.  Makes the whole process orders of magnitude easier.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on May 06, 2025, 02:20 PM

QuoteBut you don't go from $32G to where Elon is just by knowing people.

No, it helps to be a thief.

It might. But I haven't found any indications or claims that Elon STOLE that $32G's from his father.

You might know, but I certainly don't, if it wasn't his father he stole from, but someone else? Do you know what level of criminal or civil charge was leveled against him for this theft? Was he convicted, or someone just make a claim? I know, plenty high net worth individuals such as you and I might bend a regulation here and there, but it isn't official until it comes with at least a misdemenaor conviction.

Quote from: RE on May 06, 2025, 03:48 PMOnce you're not worried about your daily bread, you're free to pursue your ideas.  When you hit on a good one, you talk to your own dad or best friend's dad who introduces you to a banker and poof they set up an IPO.  Makes the whole process orders of magnitude easier.
RE

So, you are saying that Elon, starting with just that $32G's, must have done it the hard way, not having a dad's friend to help him go from $32G's to billions? We know the guy is smart, maybe he made friends along the way, and him with outstanding ideas, brains and balls and them with money to leverage in the market (for a cut of course) he then did this without being on of these "born into the right family" types.

I'm saying nothing about Elon.  I have no idea what the social circles are in South Africa.  Don't know how his first company was financed or where the capital came from.  Don't know anything about his dad or who he was friends with.  Don't know where Elon went to school.  Know nothing about SA Prep Schools.

From Wiki, I now know this much about Erroll Musk:

Errol Graham Musk (born 1946) is a South African businessman and politician, patriarch of the Musk family, and father of Elon Musk.[1] He served on the Pretoria City Council, and became a member of South Africa's Progressive Federal Party before resigning over political disagreements. As a businessman, he worked as a mechanical engineering consultant, developed properties, and invested in various ventures including emerald trading.

One can be certain from this There were numerous bankers and other bizmen in the circle Elon could pitch his ideas to.  Wasn't he part of the PayPal startup?

RE

Quote from: RE on May 06, 2025, 06:52 PMI'm saying nothing about Elon. 

I am. He is apparently the poster child for taking some small investment and turning it into something far larger without being part of a cabal of rich folk whom he inherited his billions from. Which doesn't make him the poster child for rich folk in general, but more smart folks who can get things done, even if they might be assholes.

Quote from: REFrom Wiki, I now know this much about Erroll Musk:
One can be certain from this There were numerous bankers and other bizmen in the circle Elon could pitch his ideas to.  Wasn't he part of the PayPal startup?
RE

He was certainly part of the PayPal startup. Where he made his first big bucks. And that is taking an idea, and turning it into his first billions. Starting with, early on, pops giving him $32G's.

As to whether or not bankers and financiers were involved, they probably ALWAYS are, as most folks who are smart with good ideas need startup capital, and have to convince others to provide.

I've worked with enough BCG guys to know that one, and watched while they did it. My first oil project was with $10 million in Hong Kong investor money back in the 80's, and that was just chump change involving BCG help

The ones I knew who where on the board tended to be West Point grads, didn't know enough of their background to know if they came from rich families, or were just smart folks like Elon and who also had good ideas, or financed their own and that was their work at BCG.

It's very much a matter of who you know.  If you're Kdog and work up some software to do payment transactions online, who do you go to to get thee ball rolling, protect the intellectual property, get venture capital for the startup all the while keeping Bill Gates from stealing the idea?  You'll be sspinning your wheels for a year then find out somebody else started this kind of biz.  Turns out the venture capitalist you pitched to hired a programmer and set it up himself.

On the other hand, if you're Elon, you write your bit of code, tell dad about the idea how it will make money.  Dad calls his lawyer, who he has on retainer anyhow.  Patents filed immediately.  Next call is to another pal who does ventuere capital, enough to get the site up and running.  They get a few dozen users, the lawyer call the investment bankers at Goldman to set up an IPO.  A year later PayPal has 1M users and Elon never needed a dime of the $34K.

That's how the game works.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 06, 2025, 08:31 PMOn the other hand, if you're Elon, you write your bit of code, tell dad about the idea how it will make money.  Dad calls his lawyer, who he has on retainer anyhow.

Oh please. Anyone here can hire a lawyer, I've got one on retainer for my parents estate, YOU were talking about looking for one for your plastic toys, there is zero requirement daddy needs to get involved, or that the lawyer is a shyster out to steal your idea.  You are just filling in the blanks to create a monster out of anyone who succeeds, compared to folks more in the working class.

These entire angle appears to be designed to discount the ability of someone to take an idea, and do exactly what Elon did. He is certainly an anomaly as to the scale of his success, but there are plenty of others, small business folk included, who built good livings for themselves and didn't need generational wealth or rich or powerful friends to get it done. They aren't all Elons, they didn't need to be in some cabal of rich folk to get it done, they did it the usual way. Brains, hard work, certainly sometimes some luck in involved.

Quote from: REPatents filed immediately.  Next call is to another pal who does ventuere capital, enough to get the site up and running.  They get a few dozen users, the lawyer call the investment bankers at Goldman to set up an IPO.  A year later PayPal has 1M users and Elon never needed a dime of the $34K.

That's how the game works.

Your hypothetical game.

And it works except when it isn't even needed. A local oil experienced Harvard grad gets his Harvard lawyer roommate to help him with the legal work of buying a bankrupt drilling company. They hook up with a BCG guy they know, they are in the finance world and find some money from a group of ex-West Pointers looking to do startup after global peak oil hits in 1979.

They buy into the company as part owners.

And then the usual thing happens with well run oil companies and there is no need for more than occasional funding for new acquisitions to grow, and it goes from its first 200 wells for more than 1200 along the way.

While cutesy computer coding has certainly been a thing in the recent past, building an oil company goes ALL the way back under the model I've described. Computer coding in comparison seems more like a get rich quick scheme that is fairly short lived, as the big companies have already invented the entire asshat social media world and the screwed up culture that seems to have grown up with it in the US.

Elon started his journey at the right time, timing is certainly important, and he made something work early that was required for big chunks of the internet world to work. And so between the timing and some pittance from his fsther, he did something with no generational wealth required.

Standard Oil followed a similar model as the oil company I described above. And created generational wealth for its originators, just as Elon and other oligarches are doing in media and mining and all sorts of industries. J.D. Rockefeller was a bookkeeper early on...closer to an example of what Elon has managed than this generational wealth cabal you describe.

Quote from: TDoS on May 07, 2025, 05:21 AMOh please. Anyone here can hire a lawyer

Nonsense.  Any idea how much it costs to get a patent nowadays, particularly with code?  Then to protect it?  You would burn your whole $34K just on legal fees.  If you tried to start something like PayPal without the right connections, you's be jumped on the idea by people with more money so fast the  draft would suck you into the quantum realm.  Same is true of many startups you never heard of because Bill Gates heard about it and locked it up before they could get rolling.
'
Now if you're at Harvard, you're already from the class of people who have lawyers on speed dial and you meet people in this kind of loop.  While I was at Columbia, we had a notoriously bad football team coached by Bill Campbell.  Met Steve Jobs at a party, went to work marketing for Apple.  Jumped from there to be CEO of some software startups.  The guy took a job as a crappy football coach and leveraged himself up to be a zillionaire in IT, not knowing the first thing about computers. He was a heck of a salesman though, and he knew who he had to sell to and how to meet them.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 07, 2025, 10:20 AM

Quote from: TDoS on May 07, 2025, 05:21 AMOh please. Anyone here can hire a lawyer

Nonsense.  Any idea how much it costs to get a patent nowadays, particularly with code?

Not me. But we were discussing lawyers. If a lawyer wants to know something about code, they hire someone who knows code. Those of us who testify as experts in a subject, or are hired by lawyers to explain to them what they need to know as experts, are well aware of this.

The statement stands. Wheel on down the street to where Anchorage lawyers reside, wave some money at them, and you too can hire a lawyer. If you want to sue in a specific arena, like the quality of your elder-care, they might want to go get themselves a consult with an expert in it.

Quote from: REThen to protect it?  You would burn your whole $34K just on legal fees.  If you tried to start something like PayPal without the right connections, you's be jumped on the idea by people with more money so fast the  draft would suck you into the quantum realm.  Same is true of many startups you never heard of because Bill Gates heard about it and locked it up before they could get rolling.

Good thing Elon apparently hired the right lawyers, or didn't hire any, and was smart enough to dodge these pitfalls, which you seem to characterize as givens.

How much $$ do you have to hire lawyers and their experts for your patent search on childrens toys? Or defend the idea later when someone tries to snake it out from under you? You seemed to think it wouldn't be an issue...but when someone else has already done it, with a measly $32G's, you act like it can't be done.

So which is it? Do you have gazillions to hire lawyers and pay patent experts as you describe, or $32G's stashed away to make it work like Elon did?

Whatever.  Not worth the time to debate.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 07, 2025, 04:10 PMWhatever.  Not worth the time to debate.
RE

Really? What else do you have to do? They make you sweep up the place, do dishes, cook for the others?

As far as a debate, I didn't think it even reached that far. You seem to prefer the hypothetical or theoretical, whereas I reach for logic, history, the known, personal experience, and the facts involved for specific examples.

No need for the theoretical when you've got those on your side. Does make it difficult for someone on the opposite side though.

No, you did your usual logical fallacy of Appeal to Authority which counts for nothing since your supposed expertiese is not in the field of patent law and doesn't apply to this debate.  The debate is a waste of time because we'll never know exactly how Elon got his financing or who the investment bankers, venture capitalists and lawyers involved were or how he met them.  This is all just speculation on both our parts.  The readers can decide for themselves what scenario is most likely to have played out.

RE

People are always trying to find a source in an individuals personality or intellect to explain success or failure.  This is naive, material conditions define success, not individual success or failure.

Someone who has a hard-on for existing conditions imagines we live in the best of all possible worlds.  For them attributing success to the individual is a natural urge.  It verifies their bubble of reality.

Personally I am happy not to suffer from this delusion.  Thinking everyone could become a billionaire if they just worked hard enough, and are talented is not a delusion adults should have.  The ghost of math haunts me every time i try and take on a typical American delusion.  Reality must obey algebra.

QuoteIndividualism taken in broadest terms has consisted mainly of a rejection of the state and impatience with restraints upon economic activity.  It has not tended to set the autonomous individual in rebellion against his social group.  American individualism is mostly just about wanting the government to stay out of the economy, not about meeting everyone's individual needs.  Or wanting everyone to achieve a sense of self-actualization or valuing individual autonomy or anything like that.

Very true.  In the case of Muskrat, among the reasons I found the argument tedious that besides the fact it's all just speculation on the details of how he engineered the launch of PayPal to begin his climb up the ladder of filthy rich scumbags, how he did it doesn't justify any of his behavior since, nor does it make him "worthy"  of having the money, power and control over the lives of the 1000s who work for him or the millions devastated fy his actions, from building polluting power plants for his AI supercomputers to eviscerating numerous agencies whose goals were to fund everything from scientific research to education and assisting 3rd world countries exploited by his class of Tech Bro Titans and Robber Barons.

Invariably, the people who find it necessary to justify great wealth and social priviledge are not the people born into great wealth but the nouveau riche, people who successfully climbed the financial and social ladder into the 1% who enjoy the perks of this society.  They justify their own success as being the result of hard work and intelligence and attribute poverty to laziness and stupidity.

Outcomes in life aren't so deterministic.  They are better described by Chaos Theory, resulting from a combination of starting conditions followed by a long series of variables where choices are made, some conscious and others not, some in your control and others not.  Timing and location can radically alter outcomes.  Individual outcomes are impossible to predict, but statistical  outcomes are very predictable and social stratification is easily identified.  I don't need to know how Muskrat made his climb up the ladder because I know the commonalities he has with the rest of the Tech Bros and movers and shakers in the society.  The patterns are all similar.

Our currently incarcerated contrarian was determined to keep hammering his opinions on the reasons Muskrat is so rich despite the fact I made it clear I was not interested in further speculation on this topic.  He chose to keep going on it despite that, so I cut him off and sent him to the cooler.  There he can believe whatever he chooses to.  Everyone else can believe what they want now also and we can move on to more worthwhile discussions.

RE

QuoteThey are better described by Chaos Theory, resulting from a combination of starting conditions followed by a long series of variables where choices are made, some conscious and others not, some in your control and others not.  Timing and location can radically alter outcomes.

True, that.