Quote from: TDoS on Mar 31, 2024, 07:22 AMI wrote my post. Asking a simple quesiton and then putting a frame of reference of around it. I didn't come up with the idea of somehow being poor comes with a "sting" to it, only asked, and to some extent answered, what someone might think that is.

I get it, you're a troll whose idea of a conversation appears to be preschool tier 'no i said that you cant say that' word salad diaper tantrum. RE noted this and also wondered how long I could tolerate interacting with you. I can answer him right now.

Quote from: K-Dog on Mar 31, 2024, 12:13 PM

QuoteThere is no innate human nature. If there were, the earliest modern humans woulda created and destroyed industrial civ tens of thousands of years ago. The conditions and processes of social organization which led to surplus accumulating slave society, the one we inhabit, are also the ones that created the potential for a universal humanity. But just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Just because eggs can lead to chickens doesn't mean they always do. Sometimes an egg is just an egg.

The problems are.  For one not, everyone is the same and that by itself nullifies the innate nature claim.  In the same circumstances one person thrives and another becomes a misfit.  The only thing innate here are the differences.

I disagree there are innate differences, which is also positing innate human nature. I'm not only denying a generic 'rationally self-interested' individuality common to all but individuality separate from social determinations in any instance. In fact that notion of individuality is very new. It is completely absent in the ancient world for example. It's the product of the capitalist/industrialist age. The only thing that is innately human is the social, which is necessarily predisposed towards universality.

QuoteSociety changes people.  What is 'innate' in one society is different than what is 'innate' in another.  Fish can't see the water they swim in, and humans can't know what innate  nature is.  Society changes who we think we are in ways that we can't explain.  What people call innate in their social sea is indistinguishable from what social conditioning has created in them.  Swimming in the 'sea' there is no way to tell the difference.

I agree, except that most people can understand how society changes them but in most cases choose not to. What they actually can't understand is how they can change society (mostly because they as alienated individuals can't), and that explains their wilful ignorance re the former.