Quote from: RE on Oct 12, 2026, 04:37 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Oct 12, 2026, 03:28 PMFine. I will grant that sub-Dunbar number tribes of yore can be happily socialist. Until some larger than Dunbars numbers plus gang comes along, kills and/or enslaves them nd takes their stuff anyway.

I already identified 4 tribes with numbers 2 orders of magnitude larger than Dunbar that meet  socialist criteria in many respects.

You are hedging. I don't care about "in many respects", I was specific. You and K-Dog have an idea about what socialism is (probably NOT including the perspective offered in the article I presented because it is basically irrefutable) and I asked about which ones met you and K-Dogs requirements for your version of socialism. I can just argue that the evidence previously provided is socialism from someone's personal experience, as opposed to just folks hopoing for something else on a web forum somewhere.

I care about what is the closest reasonably large scale example over the past half millennia.

Quote from: REThe tribes of the Pacific Northwest which included  Coast Salish, Makah, Quileute, Quinault, Chinook, Tillamook,  Tlingit, Haida, Tsimshian, Haisla also cooperated in a loose federation with a population total estimated anywhere between about 500K to 2M that used Potlatch to distribute wealth between the tribes.  That's 4-5 orders of magnitude over Dunbar.  They were peaceful folks before the invasion of the Europeans.

Perhaps consulting a deeper search in their history might have helped?


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Peoples of the Region
Coastal Nations: Included the Haida, Kwakwaka'wakw, Nuu chah nulth, Cowichan, Tlingit, and Tsimshian. Their societies were built around a rich subsistence economy centered on salmon and cedar, enabling some of the densest and most complex hierarchical hunter-gatherer societies in the world.

Interior Nations: Included the Kootenay, as well as various Interior Salish and Athapascan speakers who lived a varied hunting and gathering lifestyle in the mountainous interior.

Warfare and Motivations
Economic and Social Drivers: Among west coast societies, warfare was driven significantly by the desire to acquire material goods and slaves through raiding.

Wealth Accumulation: The captured goods and slaves served as crucial avenues for individuals and leaders to build up sufficient wealth to host potlatches and other give-away ceremonies, which were central to their social and political structure.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/popular-books/aboriginal-people-canadian-military/warfare-pre-columbian-north-america.html

Quote from: REI don't buy the argument that because of "Human Nature" a large society must always have "winners" and "losers". 

I never said you did. I don't believe that a "winners and losers" angle is a requirement either. I just want some examples of a thing you and K-Dog THINK is possible, having happened somewhere, sometime, with some people. I certainly think that humans do have a nature, and maybe, just maybe, it doesn't align with what you and K-Dog think is a system that can be achieved.

Quote from: REThat's like saying you can't have Justice in a large society.  it's just a matter of setting up the laws and then enforcing them.
RE

Yes. Exactly what America has today. Setting up laws and enforcing them. Allegedly. More importantly, has ANY nation ever set up laws, and applied them equally and fairly as Americans seem to think their system does? They are wrong of course, but methinks it might be in part because no such system is infalliable....perhaps humans are humans. Human nature just can't be divorced from the social systems we build. Above Dunbars number anyway.