Quote from: TDoS on Today at 07:47 PMAccording to you.

No, according to Ivy Grace writing for Bezinga Financial Services.

RE

Quote from: RE on Today at 06:29 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Today at 02:04 PMWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'll take the bet.  We established criteria for what constitutes "rich" in 2025 Amerika in this thread so that we would have an objective measure here on the Diner.

No...you erased my entire calculated number post in order to pretend it didn't exist, and then substituted your own. Your "we" was basically....you.

Quote from: REUpper Middle Class under this criteria should be plenty for anyone.
RE

According to you. I was quite happy that Mr and Mrs K-Dog could easily sell their house and continue to live with an excellent lifestyle for their 7 figure net worth, while you posited they would be homeless with so little available upon liquidating their real estate investment.

I did the math. It was just CFS.

Quote from: TDoS on Today at 02:04 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Today at 12:41 PM

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.

Would you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'll take the bet.  We established criteria for what constitutes "rich" in 2025 Amerika in this thread so that we would have an objective measure here on the Diner.  Upper Middle Class under this criteria should be plenty for anyone.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Today at 12:41 PM

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.

Would you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'm sure there are McDonalds' workers who think my 7 figure net worth number for rich folk would make them thrilled. It is relative I'm betting.

Quote from: K-DogProvided they do not screw anybody over to get it, and Musk certainly did.

Well, you would need to be more clear on the Diner definition of "screw over" and what it consists of...besides him having come up with a good idea and managed to make it work.

Quote from: K-DogBut since he has so much of the green stuff you claim not to care about very much, you give him a pass.  And I don't. 

I don't care about the green stuff much. Once you get past having the basics for your family, much beyond that is showing off. And I DON'T give Elon a pass, the results he has generated IRL is just one criteria. Results aren't just about how big a pile of cash you have.

As far as no pass, of course I don't give him a pass. I don't like dopers by definition, it is a character thing, and Elon lacks it severely. Even without throwing in him being a philandering scumbag.

Money is never the measure of a man. That you would think that yourself to use as a slur against me is offensive.

Quote from: k-dogI really do not give two fucks if you think I get bent out of shape if people have too much money or not. 

Well that is good to hear, because we are well past needing to mention your near pathological revulsion for folks with money....the irony of which I have previously noted.

Quote from: k-dogIn general people preventing the paradigm shift for selfish reasons because they are personally comfortable, and financially well off deserve my ire.

So what might be the selfish reason? Not wanting to lose what they've got? You do seem a bit sensitive to that topic of being included with those in the personally comfortable column.

Quote from: K-DogThe amount of actual money they have has nothing to do with it.  It is about their attitude.  Steve Wozniak is one of the nicest men I have ever met. He can afford to be.  As far as Musk goes, he has done things that would put other people in prison.  So why is he not there.

I've done things that have put other people in prison. So what. Lacking a conviction you've got an opinion and nothing else. That and "innocent until proven guilty". You have a disagreement with the judicial system in this country, that is different than being peeved at rich folk.

Quote from: K-DogIf you think just having money provokes my ire, you are a little man with childish thoughts.  It is 1000 times more complicated than that for me.  Having more money than brains is the problem.

You judge quite often, and quickly it would appear. "A little man"...amusing...you don't know anything about me, other than I'm generally disagreeable and on some topics am beyond just professionally well informed in my area of expertise.

The Illusions of Capitalism: Exposing Virtues as Hidden Vices 

Wealth Accumulation: A Proxy for Superiority? 

What if the key to dismantling capitalism lies in exposing its so-called virtues for what they truly are—sick vices that maintain a choke-hold on life?  Wealth accumulation is perhaps the most flaunted "virtue" under capitalism.

We are told that such-and-such individual is "worth" such-and-such amount of money, as if wealth were a state of being rather than having.

Erich Fromm wrote in To Have or to Be:

QuoteIf I am what I have, and if what I have is lost, who then am I? Nobody but a defeated, deflated, pathetic testimony to a wrong way of living.

Wealth is treated as a proxy for industriousness, intelligence, even moral superiority. But wealth accumulation never questions:

• Are these qualities real?
• How are they acquired?
• Why should we reward them?
• What are the consequences of limitless accumulation? 

In truth, wealth accumulation is a game of hoarding to prove one is "better" than others—generating inequality, oppression, and destruction. It is not a virtue but a cancerous vice. 

The Myth of Hard Work 

Hard work is heralded as the backbone of success, yet only owners of capital reap its rewards, not doctors, nurses, or gig workers. Bertrand Russell wrote in In Praise of Idleness: "A great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work." 

Why must we work endlessly? To produce and consume useless stuff before we die? True well-being comes from relationships, health, and a thriving environment—not mindless toil. 

The Tyranny of Meritocracy 

Meritocracy claims success comes from talent and effort, not privilege. But Michael Sandel warns in The Tyranny of Merit that a "perfect meritocracy" erodes solidarity by ignoring luck and circumstance.  Every trait—intelligence, effort, opportunity—stems from uncontrollable prior causes. Meritocracy is a delusion that justifies inequality. 

Philanthropy: Virtue or Vanity? 

Anand Giridharadas writes in Winners Take All that elite philanthropy is often patronage, not true aid. Real change requires dismantling the systems that create inequality—not Band-Aid donations. 

Efficiency: A Self-Defeating Vice 

Efficiency gains under capitalism lead to more consumption, not sustainability. Jason Hickel notes in Less Is More that "efficiency improvements" often accelerate ecological destruction. 

The Hidden Virtues Capitalism Rejects 

• What if capitalism's "vices" are actually virtues? 
• Idleness as reflection and resistance. 
• Unproductive creativity for self-fulfillment. 
• Slowness as mindfulness. 
• Collaboration over competition. 
• Dependency as solidarity (Ubuntu: "I am because we are"). 
• Nonconformity as moral resistance. 

Conclusion: An Economy for Life 

Capitalism's virtues are vices in disguise. We must build an Economy for Life—prioritizing well-being, equity, and sustainability over endless growth. 

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.  Provided they do not screw anybody over to get it, and Musk certainly did.  But since he has so much of the green stuff you claim not to care about very much, you give him a pass.  And I don't. 

I really do not give two fucks if you think I get bent out of shape if people have too much money or not.  That is your issue.  You confuse having a lot of money with being a good person, and while you point a finger at me, three point back at you.  You have far more of the green-eyed monster than I do to even bring it up.

In general people preventing the paradigm shift for selfish reasons because they are personally comfortable, and financially well off deserve my ire.  The amount of actual money they have has nothing to do with it.  It is about their attitude.  Steve Wozniak is one of the nicest men I have ever met. He can afford to be.  As far as Musk goes, he has done things that would put other people in prison.  So why is he not there.

And concerning Musk specifically, Musk is anti-progress.  Musk insisted that the electric car be a drop in replacement for a sports car, and nothing else.  Musk insists that rich white people make all the decisions.  And that has not worked out well.  Musk, having more money than brains, prevents the paradigm shift that could could have fucking saved civilization.

If you think just having money provokes my ire, you are a little man with childish thoughts.  It is 1000 times more complicated than that for me.  Having more money than brains is the problem.

Quote from: RE on Today at 05:45 AMI resent the few who have too much while there are so many with not enough.

RE

resent:feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person)

So is it bitterness, which implies it isn't fair that someone has more than you, or indignation that someone has managed, by hook or by crook or hard work, new ideas, exceptional intellect, to have gained/acquired or earned it?

Around here TPTB don't like the idea of someone like Elon starting with little, and working his way up the food chain. The very logical defense of how it happened is verboten and erased.

So how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

I resent the few who have too much while there are so many with not enough.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Mar 05, 2024, 07:00 PMmake police harassment safe for the police

Have you ever been "harassed" by the police? Say, interrogated, pulled into copland with bright lights and whatnot, had your stuff rifled through, arrested? Or is "harassment" in your world more being told to move along when passing out leaflets on the wonders of the ACP and things like that? Demanding climate change be a priority and getting told to disperse? Citizen protest stuff? Risk of a 2 figure fine or something?

Quote from: K-Dog on May 23, 2025, 02:11 PMI'd rather work on this stuff for my own reasons.  Praise of money is all the American mind seems to think about.  We put all our vital juices into the quest for money, yet we call ourselves free.

Define "free". I consider myself free. You seem to be. RE is in a jam for freedom but that is a physical thing.

"We" put all our vital juices into a quest for money? Out of us 3 geriatrics, I don't get the impression that applies to "we".

I just put vital juices into finding a means to not eat venison and be trapped in a social structure of the holler. That was freedom, the goal was never to become some money grubbing asshole....or worse yet one of those people who resent that others have more.