[18hammers]

I started planning to go off grid in the late/mid nineties. I was able to cut the natural gas off before 2000. Solar took longer, it was once unbelievably expensive. I bought my first panels in 2000, used at the time, for a price that will cause a fit of uncontrolled swearing if I speak of it. That first array was just one kw. I had to build a motorized frame just so I could aim it to the sun. 1kw is not a lot of power but we get a lot of sun in Alberta so I was living large right up to mid sept but then the shorter darker days of winter came and did not leave until mid/late march. The generator had to run, or contribute some power most every day in the oct to March period of winter. Power use was tight in the winter months. A few years later I added a few more used (12 volt) panels, bringing me up to 1800 watts. I was getting by but winter production still sucked. Then, I can't remember the year for sure, I think it was 2011-2012 and new Panel prices dropped to 58 cents a watt, and that was for top of the line Canadian production panels. Canadian Solar 225 watt panels. I bought 4 pallets, 5000 watts per pallet. I kept 8000 watts for myself, and resold the rest for nearly double what I had paid. So I made out ok on the deal. Now I had serious power production. Winter generator run time now can start up early DEC but ends roughly Jan 20th. So roughly 6-7 weeks when the generator runs, some time a little sometimes A lot. Over all that's not bad though it will get even better when I clear some trees. The next big change was Lifepo4 prices falling to working man price levels. About 4 years ago I made the switch, 280amphr  12 volt batteries all in parallel giving me 20kwhrs of storage. My usage is roughly 6kwhrs a day, so I have plenty. So cheap solar panels were the first big game changer, then second, these new Lifepo4 batteries. I have not had to change my system voltage, I am still at 12 volts, I find it still works fine for me.

[Nearings Fault]

By that description

I started planning to go off grid in the late/mid nineties. I was able to cut the natural gas off before 2000. Solar took longer, it was once unbelievably expensive. I bought my first panels in 2000, used at the time, for a price that will cause a fit of uncontrolled swearing if I speak of it. That first array was just one kw. I had to build a motorized frame just so I could aim it to the sun. 1kw is not a lot of power but we get a lot of sun in Alberta so I was living large right up to mid sept but then the shorter darker days of winter came and did not leave until mid/late march. The generator had to run, or contribute some power most every day in the oct to March period of winter. Power use was tight in the winter months. A few years later I added a few more used (12 volt) panels, bringing me up to 1800 watts. I was getting by but winter production still sucked. Then, I can't remember the year for sure, I think it was 2011-2012 and new Panel prices dropped to 58 cents a watt, and that was for top of the line Canadian production panels. Canadian Solar 225 watt panels. I bought 4 pallets, 5000 watts per pallet. I kept 8000 watts for myself, and resold the rest for nearly double what I had paid. So I made out ok on the deal. Now I had serious power production. Winter generator run time now can start up early DEC but ends roughly Jan 20th. So roughly 6-7 weeks when the generator runs, some time a little sometimes A lot. Over all that's not bad though it will get even better when I clear some trees. The next big change was Lifepo4 prices falling to working man price levels. About 4 years ago I made the switch, 280amphr  12 volt batteries all in parallel giving me 20kwhrs of storage. My usage is roughly 6kwhrs a day, so I have plenty. So cheap solar panels were the first big game changer, then second, these new Lifepo4 batteries. I have not had to change my system voltage, I am still at 12 volts, I find it still works fine for me.

would it be correct from your description that you are running 8000 watts of solar into a 12 volt system?

[Nearings Fault]

I've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

[RE]

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

It's always difficult to make a change to a superior technology when you have invested a whole lot of money in an older tech and the hardware still works.  Think of all the big companies that had tons invested in IBM Mainframe technology when the Desktop computers hit the scene.  They were much slower at changing over their systems than newer and/or smaller ones that had never invested so much.  Besides the hardware, all the software they had custom written for their own systems also became obsolete as newer better software was developed for desktops and mass marketed, coming in at a fraction of the price of their custom packages, which also had to be individually maintained and upgraded.  Eventually of course they did switchover except for a few applications better suited to mainframe supercomputers.Another current example is trying to build all new Charging Stations for EV carz when there are tons of already built and still functional gas pumps which are going obsolete.

Is it worth the money to make the changeover from 12V to 24V?  You have to do a Cost-Benefit analysis.  For your own application, how much added efficiency do you really need now?  How much will switching benefit you in the future?  I would say as long as 12V does the job you need done and you can still maintain it in the future, it doesn't make economic sense to switch.  This is an individual decision for everyone, there's no single answer.

RE

[Nearings Fault]

I've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

so the first thing I would say is is the turbine worth it? Most of them don't produce squat. I would suggest you try to log it because what usually happens with those small turbines is their controllers can only do bulk charging as they are usually a pwm married to a dump controller set to a specific voltage. The problem with that is when put up against a large solar array on an mppt charger their target voltage is immediately met by the solar and they default to dump load. Next would be they do not charge lithium well as they needed the lead acid to regulate their voltage or again default to dump. If I was you and you have your heart set on keeping a wind element I would do it differently. 1) find a small so so 12 volt lead acid pack that the wind turbine charges exclusively. 2) hook on one of you C60 pwm and set it up as a load controller (they do that) feed the output of the 12 volt separate battery to a voltage converter and charge the lithium battery bank with it at its perfect voltage. It works, I've seen it done on a micro hydro with the same problems 12 volt turbine, to charge a 24 volt lithium... when you switch to 24 volts all those competing charge controllers will not fight each other so much so you can leave your arrays plugged in year round. You then dump load like crazy for hot water, ac, grow lights whatever and boost your virtual battery bank that way. Cut down your Genny time...
Some random musings.
Cheers,  NF

[Nearings Fault]

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

It's always difficult to make a change to a superior technology when you have invested a whole lot of money in an older tech and the hardware still works.  Think of all the big companies that had tons invested in IBM Mainframe technology when the Desktop computers hit the scene.  They were much slower at changing over their systems than newer and/or smaller ones that had never invested so much.  Besides the hardware, all the software they had custom written for their own systems also became obsolete as newer better software was developed for desktops and mass marketed, coming in at a fraction of the price of their custom packages, which also had to be individually maintained and upgraded.  Eventually of course they did switchover except for a few applications better suited to mainframe supercomputers.Another current example is trying to build all new Charging Stations for EV carz when there are tons of already built and still functional gas pumps which are going obsolete.

Is it worth the money to make the changeover from 12V to 24V?  You have to do a Cost-Benefit analysis.  For your own application, how much added efficiency do you really need now?  How much will switching benefit you in the future?  I would say as long as 12V does the job you need done and you can still maintain it in the future, it doesn't make economic sense to switch.  This is an individual decision for everyone, there's no single answer.

RE

it is a hard decision one I again have to make. I currently have a 24 volt system and am debating upgrading to 48 volts. I'm taking down the existing and reinstalling and the breaker and cabling costs will be high to do a legal system. So do I install everything I already have for charge controllers or up the voltage and install half as many at 48 volts... There is a cost to trade in and upgrade my inverter but probably less than the costs of twice as many breakers and cables and time...

[Nearings Fault]

Been thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

[Nearings Fault]

Been thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

I am currently running a used TRIPP LITE PV2000FC 2000W, cost me all of 50 bucks of kijiji. Split phase is what most the inverters I see on line advertise them as, if they output 120/240

ok, we are talking about the same thing then. You don't see many tripp lites around. If you want the same kind of durability the magnum PAE is probably your best bet. It uses the iron core copper wrapped transformer common in low frequency inverters. It's nice because it does not have a heavy standby draw and is a well established unit, comes in 24 and 48 volts models. The newer high frequency units have done away with the core but their standby draw is higher. Their surge capacity is also not as good. In that realm would be the Sol Ark at the high end and the SRNA and growatt at the lower end. They are nice in that they incorporate the high voltage charge controllers but anything goes wrong with them and they are a brick... I just designed a system with a growatt in it. For the cost you can have a second one waiting on the shelf in case of problems. The growatt is not split phase but SRNA has one. And auto transformer is also an option.

[RE]

The shorter days of winter are here now, snow in the forecast for Monday, overnight lows going into double digit negatives.

That's getting into the Parka territory.  We're still at Sweatshirt weather here around 35F.  Sunny today also.  How about inside the house?  What temperature do you keep it at?  How many layers do you wear inside?

RE

[K-Dog]

Up stairs will be anywhere from 5 to 15C depending on day or night.

You do serious hibernation.  I hope you have chocolate.

[RE]

For winter I move into my curtained off area down stairs, 9 x 18feet =162 sqft area. the diesel heater just heats this area to 20-22C.

That's too warm for me.  Prior to being relocated to the SNIF while in my own digs, I kept my thermostatatt about 15C.  I wore 2-3 layers indoors, thermal long johns, sweatpants and crew neck sweatshirt, adding a hoodie sweatshirt with no liner if I felt cold.  To go outside to smoke a cancerette, I added another lined hoodie.  I had an electric space heater under my desk if it was -10F or less outside and cold air would bleed in under the front and back doors.  Turn it on every so often to warm my toes.

RE

[K-Dog]

I think the 21st was the shortest day of the year, and the last 5 or so days have been mostly sunny, have not needed to run the generator at all. I seem to get my needed 6 kwh a day of sun. I know that can change in a instant but the 14 day forecast looks good. Very mild temps, not even burning wood, getting above 0c most days. I was out watering my Cedar's the other day. Mostly a brown Christmas here (spots of snow). 

The 21st was the shortest day, that caught me by surprise. Times flies.  Every year seems shorter.

[RE]

I think the 21st was the shortest day of the year, and the last 5 or so days have been mostly sunny, have not needed to run the generator at all. I seem to get my needed 6 kwh a day of sun. I know that can change in a instant but the 14 day forecast looks good. Very mild temps, not even burning wood, getting above 0c most days. I was out watering my Cedar's the other day. Mostly a brown Christmas here (spots of snow). 

The 21st was the shortest day, that caught me by surprise. Times flies.  Every year seems shorter.

Every day is shorter, as a percentage of the total number of days you have been alive.  Seems insignificant, but if you think of years when you were a kid, a year seemed like a very long time.  At 10, another year was 10% of your lifetime.  At 50, another year is just 2%.

When I was a kid in the 70s watching TV shows made in the 50s, stuff like Leave it to Beaver seemed like ancient history.  Now in 2023, 2003 seems like yesterday.

Age changes your perception of time.

RE

[K-Dog]

No doubt age changes perception. 

It also does not seem cold enough to be this late in the year.  By now an endless rain of winter should be upon Seattle.  But today it is 44 degrees and sunny.  This is not the same Seattle I moved from Minneapolis to almost fifty years ago.  For decades the pattern was clear.  Endless rain with a couple or three weeks of snow in midwinter.  Very predictable, but things are much more random now.  I think it has been below freezing twice.  It has been cold, but not freezing.

We live in different times and it is not just the weather.

In the 70's the 50's seemed like ancient history.  Now old times are marketed $$$ so thoroughly that twenty years ago does seem like yesterday.  If in the 1970's old farts from the 1920's were still pushing old music it would have been weird.  Not so now.

Society ossified.  But nobody told me.  Social contradictions baked in the cake by cheap energy are tolerated by the satisfaction of general need.  Inequities hidden by human tribalism which ignores those who are out-group, flourish.

Money found a sweet spot and locked us down.

[RE]

Well, it's true that life changed much more from 1920 to 1970 than from 1970 to 2020.  The inventions and applications of eneergy came fast and furious through the early part of the 20th century, the 2nd half was mainly expansion and refinement of those technologies. Few had cars in 1920, by 1970 they were indispensible.  Cars are still cars though, and you still can drive a 1970 Ford Mustamg around and be cool.  You couldn't drive a Model T in 1970 and be cool though.

Music changed with electrification of the Gibson Guitar in the 1950s, bringing on Rock n Roll.  Everything before was instantly obsolete.  A few AM radio stations still played Frank Sinatra and he still played in Vegas, but it was fuddy duddy music.  Today you can tune in the Rolling Stones on any Classic Rock station in the country and it sounds fine.

The only real significant difference between now and 1970 is computers and social media.  That has changed the social dynamic significantly.

RE