Doomstead

Who are your target clients?  Who will you go to first and what is your sales pitch to them?

RE

Quote from: RE on May 21, 2025, 11:28 PMWho are your target clients?  Who will you go to first and what is your sales pitch to them?

RE

I'd rather work on this stuff for my own reasons.  Praise of money is all the American mind seems to think about.  We put all our vital juices into the quest for money, yet we call ourselves free.  Capitalism produces a tragically restricted understanding of reality.  The lens through which all is viewed in America is as distorted as a fun-house mirror.  AI only being the latest thing to distort.

The Nazis and Curtis Yarvins of the world would have a master race of nimrods running everything like a bizness.  Their hubris would have the blind leading the blind, marching ever onward in praise of technology.  Their false god. 

Technology, which happens to be ruining the world.  Their singular stupidity is doing us in.

As a stoic, I observe that AI is only as good as the control I have over it.  If I do not control it, then it is without value.

This will be interesting.  How could You possibly pay all the copyright fees accessed by a generative AI search?  It could be accessing 1000s (or more) of documents on any given topic to create a report or story.  Would merely including a bibliography be sufficient?  The authors of what was searched would want to be paid something.

Copyright is how Microsoft and Apple killed Napster and the software biz.  This could come round to bite them in the ass.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/ai-napster-moment-1236232248/

AI's Napster Moment May Be Next

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on May 23, 2025, 02:11 PMI'd rather work on this stuff for my own reasons.  Praise of money is all the American mind seems to think about.  We put all our vital juices into the quest for money, yet we call ourselves free.

Define "free". I consider myself free. You seem to be. RE is in a jam for freedom but that is a physical thing.

"We" put all our vital juices into a quest for money? Out of us 3 geriatrics, I don't get the impression that applies to "we".

I just put vital juices into finding a means to not eat venison and be trapped in a social structure of the holler. That was freedom, the goal was never to become some money grubbing asshole....or worse yet one of those people who resent that others have more.

I resent the few who have too much while there are so many with not enough.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 31, 2025, 05:45 AMI resent the few who have too much while there are so many with not enough.

RE

resent:feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person)

So is it bitterness, which implies it isn't fair that someone has more than you, or indignation that someone has managed, by hook or by crook or hard work, new ideas, exceptional intellect, to have gained/acquired or earned it?

Around here TPTB don't like the idea of someone like Elon starting with little, and working his way up the food chain. The very logical defense of how it happened is verboten and erased.

So how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.  Provided they do not screw anybody over to get it, and Musk certainly did.  But since he has so much of the green stuff you claim not to care about very much, you give him a pass.  And I don't. 

I really do not give two fucks if you think I get bent out of shape if people have too much money or not.  That is your issue.  You confuse having a lot of money with being a good person, and while you point a finger at me, three point back at you.  You have far more of the green-eyed monster than I do to even bring it up.

In general people preventing the paradigm shift for selfish reasons because they are personally comfortable, and financially well off deserve my ire.  The amount of actual money they have has nothing to do with it.  It is about their attitude.  Steve Wozniak is one of the nicest men I have ever met. He can afford to be.  As far as Musk goes, he has done things that would put other people in prison.  So why is he not there.

And concerning Musk specifically, Musk is anti-progress.  Musk insisted that the electric car be a drop in replacement for a sports car, and nothing else.  Musk insists that rich white people make all the decisions.  And that has not worked out well.  Musk, having more money than brains, prevents the paradigm shift that could could have fucking saved civilization.

If you think just having money provokes my ire, you are a little man with childish thoughts.  It is 1000 times more complicated than that for me.  Having more money than brains is the problem.

Quote from: K-Dog on May 31, 2025, 12:41 PM

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.

Would you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'm sure there are McDonalds' workers who think my 7 figure net worth number for rich folk would make them thrilled. It is relative I'm betting.

Quote from: K-DogProvided they do not screw anybody over to get it, and Musk certainly did.

Well, you would need to be more clear on the Diner definition of "screw over" and what it consists of...besides him having come up with a good idea and managed to make it work.

Quote from: K-DogBut since he has so much of the green stuff you claim not to care about very much, you give him a pass.  And I don't. 

I don't care about the green stuff much. Once you get past having the basics for your family, much beyond that is showing off. And I DON'T give Elon a pass, the results he has generated IRL is just one criteria. Results aren't just about how big a pile of cash you have.

As far as no pass, of course I don't give him a pass. I don't like dopers by definition, it is a character thing, and Elon lacks it severely. Even without throwing in him being a philandering scumbag.

Money is never the measure of a man. That you would think that yourself to use as a slur against me is offensive.

Quote from: k-dogI really do not give two fucks if you think I get bent out of shape if people have too much money or not. 

Well that is good to hear, because we are well past needing to mention your near pathological revulsion for folks with money....the irony of which I have previously noted.

Quote from: k-dogIn general people preventing the paradigm shift for selfish reasons because they are personally comfortable, and financially well off deserve my ire.

So what might be the selfish reason? Not wanting to lose what they've got? You do seem a bit sensitive to that topic of being included with those in the personally comfortable column.

Quote from: K-DogThe amount of actual money they have has nothing to do with it.  It is about their attitude.  Steve Wozniak is one of the nicest men I have ever met. He can afford to be.  As far as Musk goes, he has done things that would put other people in prison.  So why is he not there.

I've done things that have put other people in prison. So what. Lacking a conviction you've got an opinion and nothing else. That and "innocent until proven guilty". You have a disagreement with the judicial system in this country, that is different than being peeved at rich folk.

Quote from: K-DogIf you think just having money provokes my ire, you are a little man with childish thoughts.  It is 1000 times more complicated than that for me.  Having more money than brains is the problem.

You judge quite often, and quickly it would appear. "A little man"...amusing...you don't know anything about me, other than I'm generally disagreeable and on some topics am beyond just professionally well informed in my area of expertise.

Quote from: TDoS on May 31, 2025, 02:04 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on May 31, 2025, 12:41 PM

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.

Would you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'll take the bet.  We established criteria for what constitutes "rich" in 2025 Amerika in this thread (https://chasingthesquirrel.com/doomstead/index.php?msg=4824) so that we would have an objective measure here on the Diner.  Upper Middle Class under this criteria should be plenty for anyone.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 31, 2025, 06:29 PM

Quote from: TDoS on May 31, 2025, 02:04 PMWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'll take the bet.  We established criteria for what constitutes "rich" in 2025 Amerika in this thread (https://chasingthesquirrel.com/doomstead/index.php?msg=4824) so that we would have an objective measure here on the Diner.

No...you erased my entire calculated number post in order to pretend it didn't exist, and then substituted your own. Your "we" was basically....you.

Quote from: REUpper Middle Class under this criteria should be plenty for anyone.
RE

According to you. I was quite happy that Mr and Mrs K-Dog could easily sell their house and continue to live with an excellent lifestyle for their 7 figure net worth, while you posited they would be homeless with so little available upon liquidating their real estate investment.

I did the math. It was just CFS.

Quote from: TDoS on May 31, 2025, 07:47 PMAccording to you.

No, according to Ivy Grace writing for Bezinga Financial Services.

RE

QuoteWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

Is a childish oversimplification.  The point is relative to:

Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen
There, I made it easy for you, you can just copy and paste it into Google.  In only two clicks you will know what it means.

Actually $5 million would meet reasonable individual needs.  Especially if health care was nationalized.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 04:48 AM

QuoteWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

Is a childish oversimplification.

It is one of the most basic scientific precepts....define your terms explicitly. Agree on the metric itself, in this case relative versus nominal. This is not a childish simplication, it is a relative perspective between someone with your networth versus the average McDonalds employee. They can't afford a heat pump for their house, and you can do it to feel better about how eco-friendly you are. And owning luxury cars, because you've earned them...but then you help save the environment by not using them very much. An intersting argument in favor of virtue signaling, but it really only works if you have the bumper sticker. "Sure I have a couple of Benz....but I don't drive them much to help save the environment."

Quote from: K-DogThe point is relative to:

Code Select Expand

Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen

Thanks, I won the Bismark aware for excellence in German in high school. So Marx slogans that happily led to the real  life application by the likes of Stalin and Mao is the best you can come up with?

What's wrong with Arbeit macht frei? Good enough for the Nazi's, I bet it its right in with what Marx gave to Stalin, Mao and Kim II-Sung.

Quote from: k-DogThere, I made it easy for you, you can just copy and paste it into Google.  In only two clicks you will know what it means.

Actually $5 million would meet reasonable individual needs.  Especially if health care was nationalized.

$5 million is what someone sitting at the bottom of the 7 figure mark might think meets individual needs. Fine.  Seems reasonable to folks of our net worth.

And how much do you think that McDonalds worker thinks is enough? Because odds are it won't be $5M. They aren't factoring in nice matching luxury cars for them and their spouse I bet, or high value real estate, let alone their savings that some folks can happily invest at low rates because they feel that secure in their financial level. And can afford to be environmentally friendly with new tech for their home as well.

That McDonald's worker might be thrilled to just have a decent woodpile at the beginning of each winter. I know grandma did. Me, I was just happy we could put kerosene in the kerosene heater when we didn't have running water in the winter.

It is childish to confuse need and want.  An order of magnitude more than average keeps the wolf from the door and satisfies all needs.  If you think money is only for toys, and you do.  That is childish.

In capitalism wages are driven down to subsistence levels, enough for workers to survive and keep them working.  And perhaps just enough to keep them passive.  Capitalists compete by lowering wages.  Fair pay is not achievable under capitalism, and only under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of their labor.

Your claim is that this clear headed explanation results from my 'relative position' in life, and you spew childish right wing propaganda back at me in response.  To which I say, fuck you.

It isn't about the relative perception of wealth of a low paid member of the working class, it's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.  The expensive toys like private jets, super yachts, mansions and AI data centers and rocket ships are symbols of the power and tools to exert power.  So what a Mickey D's employee thinks is rich s irrelevant.  What is relevant is the point at which you have enough wealth to begin to move in the circles where you can begin to influence the decisions that affect the direction of society.  When you have enough money to buy a $1M ticket to a Crypto Dinner at the WH, you're well into in that class.  When you    can spring for a junket to Vegas for your local State Assemblyman you're at the low end of the class.

Bezinga Finacial Services is a wealth management company that caters to this class of people, so they do research to identify their potential clients.  The numbers Ivy Grace put up identify their target clients and let their readers  who are still just climbing the ladder know how much it takes to be more than just another well off person with a big house and new Mercedes.

It's not a hard and absolute number because there are intangibles involved besides money, like family connections, your profession and education and your notoriety or fame that are involved also.  It's definitely more than just $1M though and less than $100M.  Depending on intangibles, in most cases probably $5-10M gets you to the bottom of the ladder in 2025 Amerika.

RE

Quoteit's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.

Yes money replaced the sword.  The violence of lead and iron is replaced by the violence of silver and gold.  Silver and gold taken from the surplus value of the labor of other men.

And like fish who are fine, oblivious to the water around them, people are oblivious to the power they have. People possess the power, but they are fine with giving it up.  Injustice is more comfortable than the unknown.

So the beat goes on.   

As an example:

Power from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.  500,000 pro-growth, limited government Americans is the claim.  Reality is billionaires pay for it.  One of them and there are more than one is #25 in the world.  They give bribes awards to politicians.  And if you want to donate to the billionaires they will gladly take your money.  They have a link to that.

How sad it is, the parable of the tribes (https://wildancestors.blogspot.com/2012/06/parable-of-tribes.html).

The bottom line is two possible outcomes:



(1) Mutual annihilation.

(2) Or an end to the struggle for power, a just world order guided by reason and values.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 11:43 AMIt is childish to confuse need and want.  An order of magnitude more than average keeps the wolf from the door and satisfies all needs.  If you think money is only for toys, and you do.  That is childish.

I do not think money is only for toys. Again, please point claims without merit at others. Neither have I ever confused need and want. Once you learn this young, it sticks. Irritates the crap out of the wife, all the decades we've been married.

Quote from: K-DogIn capitalism wages are driven down to subsistence levels, enough for workers to survive and keep them working.

So, in America, after centuries of capitalism....why are my wages not at subsistence levels? Why are my kids wages not at subsistence levels? Why were my parents wages not at subsistence levels? Does this rule only apply to minimum wage workers....one of the clues in capitalism being the title "minimum wage"? Which is to say....there are still plenty who make more than this number and therefore capitalism STILL after centuries hasn't driven wages down to subsistence levels.

Is there a timeframe for your statement to take effect? Because within the advocates to the ideals of Marx, who then used that idea to run countries, those countries seemed to get to subsistence wages far faster than America.

Quote from: K-DogAnd perhaps just enough to keep them passive.  Capitalists compete by lowering wages.  Fair pay is not achievable under capitalism, and only under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of their labor.

I dispute that fair pay is not achievable in American capitalism. I have been paid fair wages for most of my career. The wife is paid fair wages, no college degree, out of the work force until the kids went to college, and learned her way up the pay scale starting at age 40. Took her less than a decade to go WAY past fair pay.

So no, not ONLY under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of not JUST their labor, but can do the same with their brains and the ability to USE them while doing that labor.

Quote from: K-DogYour claim is that this clear headed explanation results from my 'relative position' in life, and you spew childish right wing propaganda back at me in response.  To which I say, fuck you.

As someone who happily assigns every fault you can enunciate of your world view to me, I don't know what to do other than...sigh? As a registered independent, I see points on both sides of the aisle, and certainly don't espouse right wing propaganda. But if it makes you feel better to have a target, and vent, well then good for you, having a punching bag to let off some steam.

Quote from: RE on Jun 01, 2025, 12:55 PMIt isn't about the relative perception of wealth of a low paid member of the working class, it's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.

Oligarchs are entirely a different point than the trials and travels of the "working man". Whatever the hell that might mean to different people.

Quote from: REThe expensive toys like private jets, super yachts, mansions and AI data centers and rocket ships are symbols of the power and tools to exert power.  So what a Mickey D's employee thinks is rich s irrelevant.

What ANYONE thinks is relevant, as we are all created equal. Just with different perspectives. A Mickey D's employee has a perfectly valid opinion as to what seems "rich" to them. There is zero requirement, and it is probably wrong, to assume everyone of them would answer the question of "how much net worth would make you comfort in your life and living during your career at Mickey D's?" with "I WANNA BE ELON!"

Two different perspectives. Even K-Dogs perspective with his net worth didn't jump to "I WANNA BE AN OLIGARCH!!!" when he ventured his number.

Quote from: REWhat is relevant is the point at which you have enough wealth to begin to move in the circles where you can begin to influence the decisions that affect the direction of society.

Again....for YOU maybe. K-Dog says about $5,000,000 might be good. $1,000,000 seems reasonable to me as a generic guess. I have no objection to $5 million. If you have delusions of being a master of the universe type, sure, I WANNA BE ELON!!! is a reasonable angle. But that reflects the individual's personality answering the question...and a Mickey D's employee is no more required to want to be an oligarch then you are capable of becoming one at this stage in your life.

Quote from: REIt's not a hard and absolute number because there are intangibles involved besides money, like family connections, your profession and education and your notoriety or fame that are involved also.  It's definitely more than just $1M though and less than $100M.  Depending on intangibles, in most cases probably $5-10M gets you to the bottom of the ladder in 2025 Amerika.

RE

$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.

 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 11:57 AM$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.

No, but it is enough to influence City Councilmen to rezone a neighborhood to accomodate your real estate deal or to provide more police patrols around your bizness.

We're not all created equal.  That's a myth.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 02:46 PMThe bottom line is two possible outcomes:

(1) Mutual annihilation.

(2) Or an end to the struggle for power, a just world order guided by reason and values.

Humans have been "mutually annihilating" each other, friends and neighbors, indigenous peoples, etc etc since the first Stone Age asshole clubbed down a rival with a rock in their hand.

A just world order guided by reason and values sounds great! Unless of course those humans who have been annihilating each other since they were cave men are involved.

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2025, 12:34 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 11:57 AM$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.

No, but it is enough to influence City Councilmen to rezone a neighborhood to accomodate your real estate deal or to provide more police patrols around your bizness.

So is someone gathering up 100's of their McDonalds working friends and beginning protests outside of city offices, electing the councilmen in the first place (more poor people who can vote than rich ones...power of the people!) and all the usual grassroots movement stuff. Seemed to work ok for the civil rights movement.

But that runs smack into apathy, the drudgery of getting things done in a democracy, and all that crappy stuff that takes time and looks way too much like work.

Quote from: REWe're not all created equal.  That's a myth.
RE

Tell it to the Declaration of Independence. Someone sure thought good thoughts about the equalness of man once.

Kidding aside, you are correct. K-Dog however seems to be irritated by the idea that this natural and completely normal range of capabilities might be accompanied with the expected unequal results.

We can't forget "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen".

The basic counter to which is...."yeah...but what if I sand bag on my ability as a 6'4" monster of a person capable of hoisting sacks of flour all day long unlike my midget like friends and I WANT TO BE LAZY INSTEAD".

This person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

Stalin and Mao both had a tough time with this game. Probably because it ignores basic humans being assholes if not properly motivated. Capitalism seems to do that with money and living conditions. Socialism seems to do better with a better leveling of the playing field, stopping the top of the pile from collecting any more oligarchs than necessary, and coddling the lazy shits at the bottom so at least they aren't starving. But then they get buried by rapaciouis capatalists in their race to glory and riches for those who can get to the top of the pile. And maybe dragging the "some animals are more equal than others" along with them.

 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 11:47 AMSo, in America, after centuries of capitalism....why are my wages not at subsistence levels? Why are my kids wages not at subsistence levels? Why were my parents wages not at subsistence levels? Does this rule only apply to minimum wage workers....one of the clues in capitalism being the title "minimum wage"? Which is to say....there are still plenty who make more than this number and therefore capitalism STILL after centuries hasn't driven wages down to subsistence levels.

The American working class is not prosperous, the American working class survives at subsistence levels, unable to afford healthcare, housing, or dignified retirements without crushing debt. Yet imperialist propaganda insists Americans enjoy "high wages" compared to the Global South. This is a lie sustained by plunder. The U.S. working class is not paid well because of productivity or merit, but because empire extracts such grotesque surplus value from oppressed nations that crumbs can be tossed into the wind for plebes to catch.  Done to prevent revolt.

QuoteThis person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

The claim that social welfare rewards laziness is a deliberate fraud.  One designed to pit workers against each other while the rich steal the actual value of their labor. The reality? Capitalism already rewards idleness.  The idle rich. Stock parasites who inherit fortunes, do no work, yet extract wealth from millions. The landlord hoarding housing contributes nothing.  Yet landlords bleeds tenants dry. The CEO who fires workers to boost share prices gets a golden parachute, and his ass kissed.

You are a fraudster TDOS.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 01:01 PMSo is someone gathering up 100's of their McDonalds working friends and beginning protests outside of city offices, electing the councilmen in the first place (more poor people who can vote than rich ones...power of the people!) and all the usual grassroots movement stuff.

Organizing people to protest against actions like goobermint malfeasance or to get affordable housing built is legal under the Constitution.  Accepting bribes and gifts from rich donors to influence a politician is illegal and the essence of corruption of the political process.  That you would equate these two fundamentally different actions and imply their equivalence makes very clear your own ethical bankruptcy.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 02, 2025, 03:36 PMThe American working class is not prosperous, the American working class survives at subsistence levels, unable to afford healthcare, housing, or dignified retirements without crushing debt.

Again, chock full of relative terms. How much of what is "properous"? Am I the only one here who may have grown up at the "subsistence level"? Partially correct, your estimate of it, no healthcare, had a trailer but no running water in the winter and ran a kerosene heater to keep the place above 50F inside (no NG hookup available), and WHAT dignitifed retirement? Grandpap went into the county home. Grandma went into the local church hospice.

That was in the last century. So this is still around? Okay. You focus on it like it is todays news, as opposed to family history for quite a few Americans from deep into the last century.

Quote from: K-Dog

Quote from: TDoSThis person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

The claim that social welfare rewards laziness is a deliberate fraud.  One designed to pit workers against each other while the rich steal the actual value of their labor. The reality? Capitalism already rewards idleness.  The idle rich. Stock parasites who inherit fortunes, do no work, yet extract wealth from millions. The landlord hoarding housing contributes nothing.  Yet landlords bleeds tenants dry. The CEO who fires workers to boost share prices gets a golden parachute, and his ass kissed.

You are a fraudster TDOS.

My point in laziness was SPECIFIC. And PERSONAL. I grew up in the place and with the people where getting the union job holding a stop/start sign was nirvana. They weighed 300# being on the dole by the time they were 18. You can't call it a fraud when it was a reality I grew up in. You can disparage the idea that is commonplace, which might be true, but you can't alter the reality of my hometown.

Are the rich stealing stuff? Sure. Like there weren't robber barons doing the same thing more than a century go? History agrees with you about the rich stealing what they can, and people being poor down through the generations, and NONE of this is new.

Your indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

And because I knew what you are saying about these rich folks since I was taught it at age 8 or 9, this makes ME a fraud? What did I ever say that forced you to the conclusion I was uninformed about basic American history? Or my opinion on rich folk...in the early 20th century or the 21st?

You do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

I get your enthusiasm already for anti most everything money or capitalist or whatever.

What I don't get, is where and when it formed? Did you learn about the rich robber barons and union organizers and how that conflict played out over half a century before it sort of worked itself out? Or was this a political awakening later because of meeting a billionaire or something? Or has it been with you as a personal awakening when you went from the professional world to the working man world?

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2025, 05:10 PMOrganizing people to protest against actions like goobermint malfeasance or to get affordable housing built is legal under the Constitution.

Uh...yeah...I didn't say otherwise.

Quote from: REAccepting bribes and gifts from rich donors to influence a politician is illegal and the essence of corruption of the political process.

Uh...yeah...I didn't say otherwise. Good thing there are laws against it.

Quote from: REThat you would equate these two fundamentally different actions and imply their equivalence makes very clear your own ethical bankruptcy.
RE

You pretending that I implied anything remotely resembling what you assigned to me makes it very clear you REALLY prefer fighting strawmen rather than facing off against the words as written.

(https://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/69/22/169667543-walks_like_a_duck.jpg)

RE

QuoteYou do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

Nobody makes you come here, but I could be wrong about that.  Who does?

QuoteYour indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

"Everybody does it" isn't a defense.  It's a confession. You learned about the robber barons in 3rd grade?

This means you've had decades to figure out that exploitation doesn't excuse more exploitation.
Accepting theft and cruelty because it's old news doesn't make you insightful, it makes you complicit.  Framing my indignation as naïve or out-of-touch with reality is what bullies do.  Your attack tries to shame anyone who dares call out corruption.

You were not taught Robber-Baron history to accept injustice.  You were taught robber baron history so you'd recognize it, with the hope you would resist it. But you twisted your lesson into apathy, and a laziness that wants to normalize, and declare  bullshit delicious.







You be like Alex who upon learning of the scourge of Christ, wants a whip.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 05, 2025, 06:35 AM

QuoteYou do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

Nobody makes you come here, but I could be wrong about that.  Who does?

Notice the structure of the ask. "Nobody makes you come here"....quite correct...."but I could be wrong". But you aren't. And then the presumption that someone does, negating the apparent honest ask of the first 5 words.

A transition from a statement that is accurate, to uncertainty, to outright "well gee I didn't mean what I said at all". In 14 words.

A wonderful demonstration of why I asked exactly the question in the quote you referenced. And then completely ignored.

I was just asking why your ire is pointed at me, in terms of anti-capitalist irritation. I would understand if your answer was "because you are a capitalist!" and with your different political leanings that would make perfect sense. I suck because I lean capitalist. But you can't even bring yourself to just blurt that out. Why?

Were you always working class man aware in terms of your life? Or did this political uber-alles perspective come about later?

Quote from: K-Dog

QuoteYour indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

"Everybody does it" isn't a defense.  It's a confession. You learned about the robber barons in 3rd grade?

I didn't even HINT at "everybody does it". Again, you assign something to me that wasn't written or implied. The quote referenced was just me acknowledging that in American history the rich screwing over the poor has a long history. It isn't new. And yes, while the tiny church turned school house in a pipsqueak coal town wasn't much, there were books and basic learning (admittedly I was a book junkie since I learned to read, so I might have been ahead of the curve as it were in my learning at the time). That such wealth existed was fascinating. 

Quote from: K-DogThis means you've had decades to figure out that exploitation doesn't excuse more exploitation.

This means I've had decades to develop my own political leanings, which don't happen to resemble yours. All people who don't agree with your politics by definition the enemy? A "my way or the highway" type of thing?

So when did you figure out that exploitation exists? Was it local experience, history books, or only after you got older and into the EE business?

Quote from: K-DogAccepting theft and cruelty because it's old news doesn't make you insightful, it makes you complicit.

See..you are so far down this self-referential schema that I don't even know what to say. Who said I accept theft and cruelty? Who DOESN'T recognize that man has been shitty to man in far more ways than just politics and money since the first biped clubbed another to death for a female with a heavy wooden club?

And does knowing this history of species somehow mean I think it is a great idea? Says who? You are outraged at a basic human behavior going on at least since the Pharoahs were ruling Egypt, and pretending somehow that I think it is just great! As opposed to what it is....a clinical acceptance of the human condition that certainly should be changed.

And doesn't appear to have a solution yet.

Quote from: K-DogFraming my indignation as naïve or out-of-touch with reality is what bullies do.  Your attack tries to shame anyone who dares call out corruption.

I have no IDEA where you indignation or naivet comes from...THAT IS WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING WHERE IT COMES FROM. I don't presume you were BORN thinking Marx had the answers to the ills of America, I have noted that you seem to avoid any response to a basic observation that the ways Marx's ideas were put into use didn't seem to cure the underlying issues you detail frequently.

And what ATTACK? Asking questions? My ingrained talent is it is easy for me to be an observer with zero give a fucks about a topic....and when asked to investigate a topic....discover solutions or answers or new processes to solve a problem. It isn't an ATTACK to disagree with someone...it is just a different perspective.

Quote from: K-DogYou were not taught Robber-Baron history to accept injustice.  You were taught robber baron history so you'd recognize it, with the hope you would resist it. But you twisted your lesson into apathy, and a laziness that wants to normalize, and declare  bullshit delicious.

Oh just PLEASE. Again...first the windup, and then full blown assignment as to who and what I am, and how I think.

QuoteI didn't even HINT at 'everybody does it

Bullshit, your third grade reference can't mean anything else.  Clear normalization.  But perhaps everyone else knows this but you.

Americans are paid at subsistence levels. From 1979 to 2021, net American productivity rose by 64.6%, yet hourly compensation increased only by 17.3% (https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/).  This 3:1 ratio hardly keeps up with inflation.  Living standards have actually fallen, but rich useless eaters are as well off as they were back in the days of the Gilded Age.  This decoupling of wage and productivity growth demonstrates Uncle Karl's ideas about surplus extraction.  Americans are paid at subsistence levels.  Being that Americans are on on top of the imperialist pyramid, it is a comfortable subsistence.  But it is also one paycheck away from total misery.

TDoS wears growing up poor in a mining town as a badge of honor and claims capitalism is natural.  Perhaps TDoS can explain if capitalism is 'human nature, and 'natural' then why did it take company towns, strikebreakers, and child labor to enforce it? 'Natural' systems don't need Pinkerton muscle, and scab labor to survive.

Name one 'natural' system that depends on Pinkertons murdering union organizers to survive.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2025, 08:00 AMOh just PLEASE. Again...first the windup, and then full blown assignment as to who and what I am, and how I think.

Who and what you are and how you think is clear as a bell to anyone with critical thinking skills who can read the english language.  After it's read and digested for its meaning as a service to other readers who might be confused by ambiguous language and implied subtext you deny it, but the denials are implausible.  It's a kind of wealth apologetics as flawed in its objectives and method as Christian apologetics is for the religion.  In the future, when you deny the meaning of something you wrote, it will be treated as a violation of the CoC.  Complaining about this will also be treated as such.

RE

I deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMI deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

No argument from me.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMInsults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

Well...now we could discuss the definition of "insult" I suppose, but it probably isn't worth it.

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2025, 07:18 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMI deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

No argument from me.

RE

Said Goebbels to der Fuhrer.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 13, 2025, 07:31 PM

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2025, 07:18 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMI deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

No argument from me.

RE

Said Goebbels to der Fuhrer.

There are all sorts of Social Media outlets where you can go to get your social rocks off.  RE and I have no intention of this place being the social network you want it to be, so you really should find one of the other places. Or start your own website where you can make it into anything you want it to be.

It is not in the Diners mission statement to be 'social media'.  Social media in our current social climate is only for useless eaters who think being a socially engineered robot is a life of freedom because the food is good. 

I have no intention of the Diner becoming just another expression of mainstream social technique.  If I did that the Diner would have no purpose. 

Said Goebbels to der Fuhrer. is an insult and since I am de Fuhrer I could execute you right now.  I could lock this topic.  I could delete every post you ever made.  I could ban your ass.  And doing any of these things is no more than an assertion of my right of free speech which you love to piss on.


You are always wanting to be 'personal'.  If that impulse came from someone who was here to discuss the abstract issues RE and I want to bring to the table for discussion that would be one thing.  But you are only here to make trouble, and we both know it.

I'll let this one go by.  If RE wants to send you to the cooler over it, then that is what he is going to do.

And I will respect his decision.  And the next time I flip a coin, you might not be so lucky.  I am being generous.  Insults ruin critical discussion and are violation of the code of conduct.

Complaining about censorship is also a violation of the CoC, so I could drop you in the cooler for that.  However, since you just spent a week on ice, blowing off a little steam is understandable.  I'll let it go also.

Far as this topic goes, it's been beaten to death and with the current action on the political front we've left it behind.  I'm going to lock the topic.

Current topic of conversation is the action surro8unding the anti-ICE protests in LA and tomorrow's plans for the No Kings nationwide actions along with Trumpolini's military Birthday Parade.  On the international front, we have the escalation of the Israel-Iran conflict.  Your thoughts on these topics would be apropos at the moment.

RE