Quoteit's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.

Yes money replaced the sword.  The violence of lead and iron is replaced by the violence of silver and gold.  Silver and gold taken from the surplus value of the labor of other men.

And like fish who are fine, oblivious to the water around them, people are oblivious to the power they have. People possess the power, but they are fine with giving it up.  Injustice is more comfortable than the unknown.

So the beat goes on.   

As an example:

Power from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.  500,000 pro-growth, limited government Americans is the claim.  Reality is billionaires pay for it.  One of them and there are more than one is #25 in the world.  They give bribes awards to politicians.  And if you want to donate to the billionaires they will gladly take your money.  They have a link to that.

How sad it is, the parable of the tribes.

The bottom line is two possible outcomes:



(1) Mutual annihilation.

(2) Or an end to the struggle for power, a just world order guided by reason and values.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 11:43 AMIt is childish to confuse need and want.  An order of magnitude more than average keeps the wolf from the door and satisfies all needs.  If you think money is only for toys, and you do.  That is childish.

I do not think money is only for toys. Again, please point claims without merit at others. Neither have I ever confused need and want. Once you learn this young, it sticks. Irritates the crap out of the wife, all the decades we've been married.

Quote from: K-DogIn capitalism wages are driven down to subsistence levels, enough for workers to survive and keep them working.

So, in America, after centuries of capitalism....why are my wages not at subsistence levels? Why are my kids wages not at subsistence levels? Why were my parents wages not at subsistence levels? Does this rule only apply to minimum wage workers....one of the clues in capitalism being the title "minimum wage"? Which is to say....there are still plenty who make more than this number and therefore capitalism STILL after centuries hasn't driven wages down to subsistence levels.

Is there a timeframe for your statement to take effect? Because within the advocates to the ideals of Marx, who then used that idea to run countries, those countries seemed to get to subsistence wages far faster than America.

Quote from: K-DogAnd perhaps just enough to keep them passive.  Capitalists compete by lowering wages.  Fair pay is not achievable under capitalism, and only under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of their labor.

I dispute that fair pay is not achievable in American capitalism. I have been paid fair wages for most of my career. The wife is paid fair wages, no college degree, out of the work force until the kids went to college, and learned her way up the pay scale starting at age 40. Took her less than a decade to go WAY past fair pay.

So no, not ONLY under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of not JUST their labor, but can do the same with their brains and the ability to USE them while doing that labor.

Quote from: K-DogYour claim is that this clear headed explanation results from my 'relative position' in life, and you spew childish right wing propaganda back at me in response.  To which I say, fuck you.

As someone who happily assigns every fault you can enunciate of your world view to me, I don't know what to do other than...sigh? As a registered independent, I see points on both sides of the aisle, and certainly don't espouse right wing propaganda. But if it makes you feel better to have a target, and vent, well then good for you, having a punching bag to let off some steam.

Quote from: RE on Jun 01, 2025, 12:55 PMIt isn't about the relative perception of wealth of a low paid member of the working class, it's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.

Oligarchs are entirely a different point than the trials and travels of the "working man". Whatever the hell that might mean to different people.

Quote from: REThe expensive toys like private jets, super yachts, mansions and AI data centers and rocket ships are symbols of the power and tools to exert power.  So what a Mickey D's employee thinks is rich s irrelevant.

What ANYONE thinks is relevant, as we are all created equal. Just with different perspectives. A Mickey D's employee has a perfectly valid opinion as to what seems "rich" to them. There is zero requirement, and it is probably wrong, to assume everyone of them would answer the question of "how much net worth would make you comfort in your life and living during your career at Mickey D's?" with "I WANNA BE ELON!"

Two different perspectives. Even K-Dogs perspective with his net worth didn't jump to "I WANNA BE AN OLIGARCH!!!" when he ventured his number.

Quote from: REWhat is relevant is the point at which you have enough wealth to begin to move in the circles where you can begin to influence the decisions that affect the direction of society.

Again....for YOU maybe. K-Dog says about $5,000,000 might be good. $1,000,000 seems reasonable to me as a generic guess. I have no objection to $5 million. If you have delusions of being a master of the universe type, sure, I WANNA BE ELON!!! is a reasonable angle. But that reflects the individual's personality answering the question...and a Mickey D's employee is no more required to want to be an oligarch then you are capable of becoming one at this stage in your life.

Quote from: REIt's not a hard and absolute number because there are intangibles involved besides money, like family connections, your profession and education and your notoriety or fame that are involved also.  It's definitely more than just $1M though and less than $100M.  Depending on intangibles, in most cases probably $5-10M gets you to the bottom of the ladder in 2025 Amerika.

RE

$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.

 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 11:57 AM$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.

No, but it is enough to influence City Councilmen to rezone a neighborhood to accomodate your real estate deal or to provide more police patrols around your bizness.

We're not all created equal.  That's a myth.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 02:46 PMThe bottom line is two possible outcomes:

(1) Mutual annihilation.

(2) Or an end to the struggle for power, a just world order guided by reason and values.

Humans have been "mutually annihilating" each other, friends and neighbors, indigenous peoples, etc etc since the first Stone Age asshole clubbed down a rival with a rock in their hand.

A just world order guided by reason and values sounds great! Unless of course those humans who have been annihilating each other since they were cave men are involved.

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2025, 12:34 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 11:57 AM$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.

No, but it is enough to influence City Councilmen to rezone a neighborhood to accomodate your real estate deal or to provide more police patrols around your bizness.

So is someone gathering up 100's of their McDonalds working friends and beginning protests outside of city offices, electing the councilmen in the first place (more poor people who can vote than rich ones...power of the people!) and all the usual grassroots movement stuff. Seemed to work ok for the civil rights movement.

But that runs smack into apathy, the drudgery of getting things done in a democracy, and all that crappy stuff that takes time and looks way too much like work.

Quote from: REWe're not all created equal.  That's a myth.
RE

Tell it to the Declaration of Independence. Someone sure thought good thoughts about the equalness of man once.

Kidding aside, you are correct. K-Dog however seems to be irritated by the idea that this natural and completely normal range of capabilities might be accompanied with the expected unequal results.

We can't forget "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen".

The basic counter to which is...."yeah...but what if I sand bag on my ability as a 6'4" monster of a person capable of hoisting sacks of flour all day long unlike my midget like friends and I WANT TO BE LAZY INSTEAD".

This person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

Stalin and Mao both had a tough time with this game. Probably because it ignores basic humans being assholes if not properly motivated. Capitalism seems to do that with money and living conditions. Socialism seems to do better with a better leveling of the playing field, stopping the top of the pile from collecting any more oligarchs than necessary, and coddling the lazy shits at the bottom so at least they aren't starving. But then they get buried by rapaciouis capatalists in their race to glory and riches for those who can get to the top of the pile. And maybe dragging the "some animals are more equal than others" along with them.

 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 11:47 AMSo, in America, after centuries of capitalism....why are my wages not at subsistence levels? Why are my kids wages not at subsistence levels? Why were my parents wages not at subsistence levels? Does this rule only apply to minimum wage workers....one of the clues in capitalism being the title "minimum wage"? Which is to say....there are still plenty who make more than this number and therefore capitalism STILL after centuries hasn't driven wages down to subsistence levels.

The American working class is not prosperous, the American working class survives at subsistence levels, unable to afford healthcare, housing, or dignified retirements without crushing debt. Yet imperialist propaganda insists Americans enjoy "high wages" compared to the Global South. This is a lie sustained by plunder. The U.S. working class is not paid well because of productivity or merit, but because empire extracts such grotesque surplus value from oppressed nations that crumbs can be tossed into the wind for plebes to catch.  Done to prevent revolt.

QuoteThis person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

The claim that social welfare rewards laziness is a deliberate fraud.  One designed to pit workers against each other while the rich steal the actual value of their labor. The reality? Capitalism already rewards idleness.  The idle rich. Stock parasites who inherit fortunes, do no work, yet extract wealth from millions. The landlord hoarding housing contributes nothing.  Yet landlords bleeds tenants dry. The CEO who fires workers to boost share prices gets a golden parachute, and his ass kissed.

You are a fraudster TDOS.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 02, 2025, 01:01 PMSo is someone gathering up 100's of their McDonalds working friends and beginning protests outside of city offices, electing the councilmen in the first place (more poor people who can vote than rich ones...power of the people!) and all the usual grassroots movement stuff.

Organizing people to protest against actions like goobermint malfeasance or to get affordable housing built is legal under the Constitution.  Accepting bribes and gifts from rich donors to influence a politician is illegal and the essence of corruption of the political process.  That you would equate these two fundamentally different actions and imply their equivalence makes very clear your own ethical bankruptcy.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 02, 2025, 03:36 PMThe American working class is not prosperous, the American working class survives at subsistence levels, unable to afford healthcare, housing, or dignified retirements without crushing debt.

Again, chock full of relative terms. How much of what is "properous"? Am I the only one here who may have grown up at the "subsistence level"? Partially correct, your estimate of it, no healthcare, had a trailer but no running water in the winter and ran a kerosene heater to keep the place above 50F inside (no NG hookup available), and WHAT dignitifed retirement? Grandpap went into the county home. Grandma went into the local church hospice.

That was in the last century. So this is still around? Okay. You focus on it like it is todays news, as opposed to family history for quite a few Americans from deep into the last century.

Quote from: K-Dog

Quote from: TDoSThis person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

The claim that social welfare rewards laziness is a deliberate fraud.  One designed to pit workers against each other while the rich steal the actual value of their labor. The reality? Capitalism already rewards idleness.  The idle rich. Stock parasites who inherit fortunes, do no work, yet extract wealth from millions. The landlord hoarding housing contributes nothing.  Yet landlords bleeds tenants dry. The CEO who fires workers to boost share prices gets a golden parachute, and his ass kissed.

You are a fraudster TDOS.

My point in laziness was SPECIFIC. And PERSONAL. I grew up in the place and with the people where getting the union job holding a stop/start sign was nirvana. They weighed 300# being on the dole by the time they were 18. You can't call it a fraud when it was a reality I grew up in. You can disparage the idea that is commonplace, which might be true, but you can't alter the reality of my hometown.

Are the rich stealing stuff? Sure. Like there weren't robber barons doing the same thing more than a century go? History agrees with you about the rich stealing what they can, and people being poor down through the generations, and NONE of this is new.

Your indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

And because I knew what you are saying about these rich folks since I was taught it at age 8 or 9, this makes ME a fraud? What did I ever say that forced you to the conclusion I was uninformed about basic American history? Or my opinion on rich folk...in the early 20th century or the 21st?

You do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

I get your enthusiasm already for anti most everything money or capitalist or whatever.

What I don't get, is where and when it formed? Did you learn about the rich robber barons and union organizers and how that conflict played out over half a century before it sort of worked itself out? Or was this a political awakening later because of meeting a billionaire or something? Or has it been with you as a personal awakening when you went from the professional world to the working man world?

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2025, 05:10 PMOrganizing people to protest against actions like goobermint malfeasance or to get affordable housing built is legal under the Constitution.

Uh...yeah...I didn't say otherwise.

Quote from: REAccepting bribes and gifts from rich donors to influence a politician is illegal and the essence of corruption of the political process.

Uh...yeah...I didn't say otherwise. Good thing there are laws against it.

Quote from: REThat you would equate these two fundamentally different actions and imply their equivalence makes very clear your own ethical bankruptcy.
RE

You pretending that I implied anything remotely resembling what you assigned to me makes it very clear you REALLY prefer fighting strawmen rather than facing off against the words as written.

RE

QuoteYou do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

Nobody makes you come here, but I could be wrong about that.  Who does?

QuoteYour indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

"Everybody does it" isn't a defense.  It's a confession. You learned about the robber barons in 3rd grade?

This means you've had decades to figure out that exploitation doesn't excuse more exploitation.
Accepting theft and cruelty because it's old news doesn't make you insightful, it makes you complicit.  Framing my indignation as naïve or out-of-touch with reality is what bullies do.  Your attack tries to shame anyone who dares call out corruption.

You were not taught Robber-Baron history to accept injustice.  You were taught robber baron history so you'd recognize it, with the hope you would resist it. But you twisted your lesson into apathy, and a laziness that wants to normalize, and declare  bullshit delicious.







You be like Alex who upon learning of the scourge of Christ, wants a whip.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 05, 2025, 06:35 AM

QuoteYou do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

Nobody makes you come here, but I could be wrong about that.  Who does?

Notice the structure of the ask. "Nobody makes you come here"....quite correct...."but I could be wrong". But you aren't. And then the presumption that someone does, negating the apparent honest ask of the first 5 words.

A transition from a statement that is accurate, to uncertainty, to outright "well gee I didn't mean what I said at all". In 14 words.

A wonderful demonstration of why I asked exactly the question in the quote you referenced. And then completely ignored.

I was just asking why your ire is pointed at me, in terms of anti-capitalist irritation. I would understand if your answer was "because you are a capitalist!" and with your different political leanings that would make perfect sense. I suck because I lean capitalist. But you can't even bring yourself to just blurt that out. Why?

Were you always working class man aware in terms of your life? Or did this political uber-alles perspective come about later?

Quote from: K-Dog

QuoteYour indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

"Everybody does it" isn't a defense.  It's a confession. You learned about the robber barons in 3rd grade?

I didn't even HINT at "everybody does it". Again, you assign something to me that wasn't written or implied. The quote referenced was just me acknowledging that in American history the rich screwing over the poor has a long history. It isn't new. And yes, while the tiny church turned school house in a pipsqueak coal town wasn't much, there were books and basic learning (admittedly I was a book junkie since I learned to read, so I might have been ahead of the curve as it were in my learning at the time). That such wealth existed was fascinating. 

Quote from: K-DogThis means you've had decades to figure out that exploitation doesn't excuse more exploitation.

This means I've had decades to develop my own political leanings, which don't happen to resemble yours. All people who don't agree with your politics by definition the enemy? A "my way or the highway" type of thing?

So when did you figure out that exploitation exists? Was it local experience, history books, or only after you got older and into the EE business?

Quote from: K-DogAccepting theft and cruelty because it's old news doesn't make you insightful, it makes you complicit.

See..you are so far down this self-referential schema that I don't even know what to say. Who said I accept theft and cruelty? Who DOESN'T recognize that man has been shitty to man in far more ways than just politics and money since the first biped clubbed another to death for a female with a heavy wooden club?

And does knowing this history of species somehow mean I think it is a great idea? Says who? You are outraged at a basic human behavior going on at least since the Pharoahs were ruling Egypt, and pretending somehow that I think it is just great! As opposed to what it is....a clinical acceptance of the human condition that certainly should be changed.

And doesn't appear to have a solution yet.

Quote from: K-DogFraming my indignation as naïve or out-of-touch with reality is what bullies do.  Your attack tries to shame anyone who dares call out corruption.

I have no IDEA where you indignation or naivet comes from...THAT IS WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING WHERE IT COMES FROM. I don't presume you were BORN thinking Marx had the answers to the ills of America, I have noted that you seem to avoid any response to a basic observation that the ways Marx's ideas were put into use didn't seem to cure the underlying issues you detail frequently.

And what ATTACK? Asking questions? My ingrained talent is it is easy for me to be an observer with zero give a fucks about a topic....and when asked to investigate a topic....discover solutions or answers or new processes to solve a problem. It isn't an ATTACK to disagree with someone...it is just a different perspective.

Quote from: K-DogYou were not taught Robber-Baron history to accept injustice.  You were taught robber baron history so you'd recognize it, with the hope you would resist it. But you twisted your lesson into apathy, and a laziness that wants to normalize, and declare  bullshit delicious.

Oh just PLEASE. Again...first the windup, and then full blown assignment as to who and what I am, and how I think.

QuoteI didn't even HINT at 'everybody does it

Bullshit, your third grade reference can't mean anything else.  Clear normalization.  But perhaps everyone else knows this but you.

Americans are paid at subsistence levels. From 1979 to 2021, net American productivity rose by 64.6%, yet hourly compensation increased only by 17.3%.  This 3:1 ratio hardly keeps up with inflation.  Living standards have actually fallen, but rich useless eaters are as well off as they were back in the days of the Gilded Age.  This decoupling of wage and productivity growth demonstrates Uncle Karl's ideas about surplus extraction.  Americans are paid at subsistence levels.  Being that Americans are on on top of the imperialist pyramid, it is a comfortable subsistence.  But it is also one paycheck away from total misery.

TDoS wears growing up poor in a mining town as a badge of honor and claims capitalism is natural.  Perhaps TDoS can explain if capitalism is 'human nature, and 'natural' then why did it take company towns, strikebreakers, and child labor to enforce it? 'Natural' systems don't need Pinkerton muscle, and scab labor to survive.

Name one 'natural' system that depends on Pinkertons murdering union organizers to survive.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2025, 08:00 AMOh just PLEASE. Again...first the windup, and then full blown assignment as to who and what I am, and how I think.

Who and what you are and how you think is clear as a bell to anyone with critical thinking skills who can read the english language.  After it's read and digested for its meaning as a service to other readers who might be confused by ambiguous language and implied subtext you deny it, but the denials are implausible.  It's a kind of wealth apologetics as flawed in its objectives and method as Christian apologetics is for the religion.  In the future, when you deny the meaning of something you wrote, it will be treated as a violation of the CoC.  Complaining about this will also be treated as such.

RE