Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 02, 2025, 03:36 PMThe American working class is not prosperous, the American working class survives at subsistence levels, unable to afford healthcare, housing, or dignified retirements without crushing debt.

Again, chock full of relative terms. How much of what is "properous"? Am I the only one here who may have grown up at the "subsistence level"? Partially correct, your estimate of it, no healthcare, had a trailer but no running water in the winter and ran a kerosene heater to keep the place above 50F inside (no NG hookup available), and WHAT dignitifed retirement? Grandpap went into the county home. Grandma went into the local church hospice.

That was in the last century. So this is still around? Okay. You focus on it like it is todays news, as opposed to family history for quite a few Americans from deep into the last century.

Quote from: K-Dog

Quote from: TDoSThis person figures out that while their ability at hoisting weight is substantial.....I really don't want to.....so I fuck off and occasionally hoist a flour bag and guess what? I get the same state supplied apartment as the schmuck who DOES load the flour as an honest worker. 

The claim that social welfare rewards laziness is a deliberate fraud.  One designed to pit workers against each other while the rich steal the actual value of their labor. The reality? Capitalism already rewards idleness.  The idle rich. Stock parasites who inherit fortunes, do no work, yet extract wealth from millions. The landlord hoarding housing contributes nothing.  Yet landlords bleeds tenants dry. The CEO who fires workers to boost share prices gets a golden parachute, and his ass kissed.

You are a fraudster TDOS.

My point in laziness was SPECIFIC. And PERSONAL. I grew up in the place and with the people where getting the union job holding a stop/start sign was nirvana. They weighed 300# being on the dole by the time they were 18. You can't call it a fraud when it was a reality I grew up in. You can disparage the idea that is commonplace, which might be true, but you can't alter the reality of my hometown.

Are the rich stealing stuff? Sure. Like there weren't robber barons doing the same thing more than a century go? History agrees with you about the rich stealing what they can, and people being poor down through the generations, and NONE of this is new.

Your indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

And because I knew what you are saying about these rich folks since I was taught it at age 8 or 9, this makes ME a fraud? What did I ever say that forced you to the conclusion I was uninformed about basic American history? Or my opinion on rich folk...in the early 20th century or the 21st?

You do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

I get your enthusiasm already for anti most everything money or capitalist or whatever.

What I don't get, is where and when it formed? Did you learn about the rich robber barons and union organizers and how that conflict played out over half a century before it sort of worked itself out? Or was this a political awakening later because of meeting a billionaire or something? Or has it been with you as a personal awakening when you went from the professional world to the working man world?

Quote from: RE on Jun 02, 2025, 05:10 PMOrganizing people to protest against actions like goobermint malfeasance or to get affordable housing built is legal under the Constitution.

Uh...yeah...I didn't say otherwise.

Quote from: REAccepting bribes and gifts from rich donors to influence a politician is illegal and the essence of corruption of the political process.

Uh...yeah...I didn't say otherwise. Good thing there are laws against it.

Quote from: REThat you would equate these two fundamentally different actions and imply their equivalence makes very clear your own ethical bankruptcy.
RE

You pretending that I implied anything remotely resembling what you assigned to me makes it very clear you REALLY prefer fighting strawmen rather than facing off against the words as written.

RE

QuoteYou do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

Nobody makes you come here, but I could be wrong about that.  Who does?

QuoteYour indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

"Everybody does it" isn't a defense.  It's a confession. You learned about the robber barons in 3rd grade?

This means you've had decades to figure out that exploitation doesn't excuse more exploitation.
Accepting theft and cruelty because it's old news doesn't make you insightful, it makes you complicit.  Framing my indignation as naïve or out-of-touch with reality is what bullies do.  Your attack tries to shame anyone who dares call out corruption.

You were not taught Robber-Baron history to accept injustice.  You were taught robber baron history so you'd recognize it, with the hope you would resist it. But you twisted your lesson into apathy, and a laziness that wants to normalize, and declare  bullshit delicious.







You be like Alex who upon learning of the scourge of Christ, wants a whip.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 05, 2025, 06:35 AM

QuoteYou do this thing....plug in my username as a target and assign all your anti-capitalist irritation to it.

Nobody makes you come here, but I could be wrong about that.  Who does?

Notice the structure of the ask. "Nobody makes you come here"....quite correct...."but I could be wrong". But you aren't. And then the presumption that someone does, negating the apparent honest ask of the first 5 words.

A transition from a statement that is accurate, to uncertainty, to outright "well gee I didn't mean what I said at all". In 14 words.

A wonderful demonstration of why I asked exactly the question in the quote you referenced. And then completely ignored.

I was just asking why your ire is pointed at me, in terms of anti-capitalist irritation. I would understand if your answer was "because you are a capitalist!" and with your different political leanings that would make perfect sense. I suck because I lean capitalist. But you can't even bring yourself to just blurt that out. Why?

Were you always working class man aware in terms of your life? Or did this political uber-alles perspective come about later?

Quote from: K-Dog

QuoteYour indignation over American rich screwing over the poor is something you've known since when? We were taught about robber barons in the 3rd grade American history in the old church converted into a little coal towns 3rd-4th grade school house.

"Everybody does it" isn't a defense.  It's a confession. You learned about the robber barons in 3rd grade?

I didn't even HINT at "everybody does it". Again, you assign something to me that wasn't written or implied. The quote referenced was just me acknowledging that in American history the rich screwing over the poor has a long history. It isn't new. And yes, while the tiny church turned school house in a pipsqueak coal town wasn't much, there were books and basic learning (admittedly I was a book junkie since I learned to read, so I might have been ahead of the curve as it were in my learning at the time). That such wealth existed was fascinating. 

Quote from: K-DogThis means you've had decades to figure out that exploitation doesn't excuse more exploitation.

This means I've had decades to develop my own political leanings, which don't happen to resemble yours. All people who don't agree with your politics by definition the enemy? A "my way or the highway" type of thing?

So when did you figure out that exploitation exists? Was it local experience, history books, or only after you got older and into the EE business?

Quote from: K-DogAccepting theft and cruelty because it's old news doesn't make you insightful, it makes you complicit.

See..you are so far down this self-referential schema that I don't even know what to say. Who said I accept theft and cruelty? Who DOESN'T recognize that man has been shitty to man in far more ways than just politics and money since the first biped clubbed another to death for a female with a heavy wooden club?

And does knowing this history of species somehow mean I think it is a great idea? Says who? You are outraged at a basic human behavior going on at least since the Pharoahs were ruling Egypt, and pretending somehow that I think it is just great! As opposed to what it is....a clinical acceptance of the human condition that certainly should be changed.

And doesn't appear to have a solution yet.

Quote from: K-DogFraming my indignation as naïve or out-of-touch with reality is what bullies do.  Your attack tries to shame anyone who dares call out corruption.

I have no IDEA where you indignation or naivet comes from...THAT IS WHY I HAVE BEEN ASKING WHERE IT COMES FROM. I don't presume you were BORN thinking Marx had the answers to the ills of America, I have noted that you seem to avoid any response to a basic observation that the ways Marx's ideas were put into use didn't seem to cure the underlying issues you detail frequently.

And what ATTACK? Asking questions? My ingrained talent is it is easy for me to be an observer with zero give a fucks about a topic....and when asked to investigate a topic....discover solutions or answers or new processes to solve a problem. It isn't an ATTACK to disagree with someone...it is just a different perspective.

Quote from: K-DogYou were not taught Robber-Baron history to accept injustice.  You were taught robber baron history so you'd recognize it, with the hope you would resist it. But you twisted your lesson into apathy, and a laziness that wants to normalize, and declare  bullshit delicious.

Oh just PLEASE. Again...first the windup, and then full blown assignment as to who and what I am, and how I think.

QuoteI didn't even HINT at 'everybody does it

Bullshit, your third grade reference can't mean anything else.  Clear normalization.  But perhaps everyone else knows this but you.

Americans are paid at subsistence levels. From 1979 to 2021, net American productivity rose by 64.6%, yet hourly compensation increased only by 17.3%.  This 3:1 ratio hardly keeps up with inflation.  Living standards have actually fallen, but rich useless eaters are as well off as they were back in the days of the Gilded Age.  This decoupling of wage and productivity growth demonstrates Uncle Karl's ideas about surplus extraction.  Americans are paid at subsistence levels.  Being that Americans are on on top of the imperialist pyramid, it is a comfortable subsistence.  But it is also one paycheck away from total misery.

TDoS wears growing up poor in a mining town as a badge of honor and claims capitalism is natural.  Perhaps TDoS can explain if capitalism is 'human nature, and 'natural' then why did it take company towns, strikebreakers, and child labor to enforce it? 'Natural' systems don't need Pinkerton muscle, and scab labor to survive.

Name one 'natural' system that depends on Pinkertons murdering union organizers to survive.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2025, 08:00 AMOh just PLEASE. Again...first the windup, and then full blown assignment as to who and what I am, and how I think.

Who and what you are and how you think is clear as a bell to anyone with critical thinking skills who can read the english language.  After it's read and digested for its meaning as a service to other readers who might be confused by ambiguous language and implied subtext you deny it, but the denials are implausible.  It's a kind of wealth apologetics as flawed in its objectives and method as Christian apologetics is for the religion.  In the future, when you deny the meaning of something you wrote, it will be treated as a violation of the CoC.  Complaining about this will also be treated as such.

RE

I deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMI deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

No argument from me.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMInsults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

Well...now we could discuss the definition of "insult" I suppose, but it probably isn't worth it.

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2025, 07:18 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMI deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

No argument from me.

RE

Said Goebbels to der Fuhrer.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 13, 2025, 07:31 PM

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2025, 07:18 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2025, 05:52 PMI deleted three posts from TDOS, each one more insulting than the last.  Insulting other Diners violate our code of conduct.

He is the cooler for a week.

Insults ruin critical discussion.  I won't have it.

No argument from me.

RE

Said Goebbels to der Fuhrer.

There are all sorts of Social Media outlets where you can go to get your social rocks off.  RE and I have no intention of this place being the social network you want it to be, so you really should find one of the other places. Or start your own website where you can make it into anything you want it to be.

It is not in the Diners mission statement to be 'social media'.  Social media in our current social climate is only for useless eaters who think being a socially engineered robot is a life of freedom because the food is good. 

I have no intention of the Diner becoming just another expression of mainstream social technique.  If I did that the Diner would have no purpose. 

Said Goebbels to der Fuhrer. is an insult and since I am de Fuhrer I could execute you right now.  I could lock this topic.  I could delete every post you ever made.  I could ban your ass.  And doing any of these things is no more than an assertion of my right of free speech which you love to piss on.


You are always wanting to be 'personal'.  If that impulse came from someone who was here to discuss the abstract issues RE and I want to bring to the table for discussion that would be one thing.  But you are only here to make trouble, and we both know it.

I'll let this one go by.  If RE wants to send you to the cooler over it, then that is what he is going to do.

And I will respect his decision.  And the next time I flip a coin, you might not be so lucky.  I am being generous.  Insults ruin critical discussion and are violation of the code of conduct.

Complaining about censorship is also a violation of the CoC, so I could drop you in the cooler for that.  However, since you just spent a week on ice, blowing off a little steam is understandable.  I'll let it go also.

Far as this topic goes, it's been beaten to death and with the current action on the political front we've left it behind.  I'm going to lock the topic.

Current topic of conversation is the action surro8unding the anti-ICE protests in LA and tomorrow's plans for the No Kings nationwide actions along with Trumpolini's military Birthday Parade.  On the international front, we have the escalation of the Israel-Iran conflict.  Your thoughts on these topics would be apropos at the moment.

RE