Quote from: K-Dog on Apr 24, 2024, 12:38 PMIf TDOS wants to start a website about how America will never run out of oil because we have never pumped more oil than we do now he has a right to do so.

I have suggested this on numerous occasions, and if he was really serious about getting his POV out in the PeakOil blogosphere, he would do so.  When we were booted or had our posting removed from websites like PeakOil.com & Clusterfuck Nation, we set up our own websites so that we could continue to provide our World Class understanding of the issues impacting on collapse to the blog and forum reading public.  Tdos could do the same thing anytime, but he doesn't. Because his objective is not to inform readers, it's to disrupt the flow of information from this one in any way he can.  One way to do that is to get into a meta debate about free speech.  Another is to make character attacks either on us, or on any other World Class experts we make a link to or pull a quote from.

According to him, he has extensive material published on the web on his favorite topic, except it's not available for reading by blog readers because he's too chickenshit to reveal his real name and link to this vast depository of World Class Peak Oil information. lol.  But you can trust him, it's all highly respected material that is read by other World Class experts in his field.

All he needs to do to have a shred of credibility is take 10 minutes to set up his own EndlessOil SMF on creataforum.com for free and start it off with links to all his articles, then drop in the commentariat of PeakOil.com or here when his latest ban expires and publish the link to the forum.  POOF, he'll have the same free speech we have here, he will be Admin there, Power of God on a Forum. lol.

Instead of this common fucking sense solution to his recurring problem of being a disrespectful asshole and getting himself more time in the cooler, he waits for his sentence to finish andwithin 2-3 posts gets his sorry ass booted right back in there.  It is a Failure to Communicate.


RE

QuoteWhen we were booted or had our posting removed from websites like PeakOil.com & Clusterfuck Nation, we set up our own websites so that we could continue to provide our World Class understanding of the issues impacting on collapse to the blog and forum reading public.

Exactly right.  And thank you for not making Clusterfuck Nation a link.

Quote from: K-Dog on Apr 24, 2024, 12:38 PMIf TDOS wants to start a website about how America will never run out of oil because we have never pumped more oil than we do now he has a right to do so.  He does not have a right to publish that message here.  He can come here to debate his point of view if he is respectful, and he does not ignore us whenever he feels like it.

TDoS isn't an idiot, and knows quite well that peak oil is a mathematical given. And it is ridiculous pretending that the message of "gee folks are calling it early because they don't know dick about oil" is the same as "oil will never run out".

And start a website? That makes more sense than presentations at national conventions and conferences among geoscience professionals who understand the difference between the two perspectives I just clarified for those who seem to think are synonmous?

Quote from: TDoS on Apr 28, 2024, 07:26 PMAnd start a website? That makes more sense than presentations at national conventions and conferences among geoscience professionals who understand the difference between the two perspectives I just clarified for those who seem to think are synonmous?

It makes a lot more sense than wasting your time here where the few people who read the website find you to be lacking in credibility and trollish in your behavior.  Since you're so well respected by geoscience professionals, stick to them if you are too chickenshit to start your own website and use your real name.

RE

Quote from: RE on Apr 28, 2024, 08:25 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Apr 28, 2024, 07:26 PMAnd start a website?

It makes a lot more sense than wasting your time here where the few people who read the website....

I never told you why I linger among certain old school peak oil claimants/doomers. And because you don't know the why, you don't know why it is NOT time wasting.

Quote from: RE....find you to be lacking in credibility and trollish in your behavior.

The cumulative training, scientific and professional experience across all your members across all your website incarnations aren't capable of reviewing my work, let alone critiquing it. You are free to prove me wrong of course.     Your high school was pretty good, who knows, you might succeed where all the company petroleum geologists, geochemists, international experts, academics, college professors, PhDs and USGS did not. 

Quote from: RESince you're so well respected by geoscience professionals, stick to them if you are too chickenshit to start your own website and use your real name.
RE

I use my own name all the time. I'll admit, I'm careful when on websites. Sometimes they'll track you down using your IPs on your posts as you travel, track you to national conferences, use some deductive reasoning and database analysis to tell everyone who you are when you would prefer they not.

And then realize why the previous paragraph I wrote is completely accurate, and don't know whether to shit or go blind.

QuoteI question the assumption that there are only about 10,000 people who realize this.

Compelling research by Erica Chenoweth, a political scientist at Harvard University, says that civil disobedience is the most powerful way of shaping world politics.  Chenoweth found that nonviolent campaigns are twice as likely to achieve their goals as violent campaigns. Chenoweth claims it takes around 3.5% of the population actively participating in protests to ensure serious political change.

More than ten thousand but less than 10 million or the world would be different by the above.  That's quite a spread, but if the number of well informed is even a million.  I'd be surprised.  If there were a million well informed squirming with truth there would be organized political activity.  Like in the occupy movement days.  We would find each other. 

Nobody wants to hear the message you say.  I agree, and that means very few actually understand our predicament.  The religion of modernity puts no limits on growth, and cultural hegemony silences the blasphemy of thinking the existing system is anything less than perfect.  Belief in the infallibility of technology is rampant, and even radical socialists and others outside the mainstream believe if things were 'fixed' there would be enough stuff to go around.  They are all wrong about that.

I'll move my number up to 100K but any higher, and I play the Trump card.    The Trump card absolutely shows the number of well informed people in America is less than a million.  And considering the duopoly has almost the entire population in thrall I content that the vast majority of citizens of the North American Continent live in intellectual ignorance. 

If we had more than 100,000 well informed people we would hear more than crickets.


And we would find each other offline.

Generations before us saw natural wonders we can't imagine.  Rivers boiling with fish.  The passenger pigeon.  Buffalo as far as the eye can see.  Mammoths and mega-fauna we do not even know about.  Memories gone, memories lost like tears in rain.  In our own time the oldest among us have seen things newer generations don't know about.  There is an entropy to knowledge, a forgetting.  Literacy is also in decline.  Video killed the radio star.  Video is fine, but reading is fundamental.

The number of well informed is not as many as we would wish.  We have wishful thinking, and imagine the number is larger than it is.  How many people know who Derick Jensen is?  If we had a test for doomers that would be on it.  You only get a few seconds to answer or:

Quote from: Vegematic Deluxe on Apr 29, 2024, 09:34 PMAlthough I agree that continued growth is completely unsustainable, I question the assumption that there are only about 10,000 people who realize this. Most confirmed doomers eventually get exhausted proclaiming a truth that nobody wants to hear.  I believe that even with the massive suppression of truth, there are no doubt huge numbers of people who refuse to don the rose colored glasses and understand the unprecedented disaster our species is facing.

Depends on what you mean by "realize"?  If all you mean is that a person can see the society they live in is failing and that we're heading for a reckoning, the number is far larger than 10K, and getting bigger all the time.  I can see the change in the people I talk to IRL, I can see it in pop culture and in fiction.  I definitely see it in the participation in groups like Extinction Rebellion and even Right wing Natalists.

If however you mean people who really understand Collapse, what underlies it inside our current culture and the mechanics of how all the different manifestations fit together the number is far smaller.  Even some of the very best academics and historians like Jared Diamond and Joseph Tainter who have written detailed books analyzing collapse of prior cultures and the scientists of the club of Rome who authored the Limits to Growth Study and Richard Duncan who proposed the Olduvai Theory or Rachel Carson who wrote Silent Spring have a relatively narrow focus and only see collapse through the narrow lens of their specialty area. For a complete understanding of the economic, social, political and scientific reasons we are utterly and completely fucked, you are talking a number far smaller than 10K, you can probably count the number of people on your fingers and toes.

You don't necessarily need to know the entire history of the Middle East going back to Biblical times and the modern history of Colonialism and resource wars that have led up to the current conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza to protest against it though, nor should you need to have a complete understanding of the real estate market to protest against homelessness or detailed knowledge of geochemistry to understand how dependence of fossil fuels has created an unsustainable consumption level of energy and protest against that.  The more things you understand though and the more relationships you can draw in, the better the chance you can bring together the critical mass of people necessary to effect change.

Unfortunately, even with the understanding, trying to get the word out when the most powerful forces in society want it surpressed is a mighty difficult thing to do, so developing any kind of organized resistance to the self destructive trajectory of our civilization is close to impossible.  All we have is a bunch of fractured pockets of opposition to some ofthe more obvious and egregious problems.  At this point, it doesn't seem very likely that any sort of effective, organized resistance and change of BAU will occur before we inevitably run into a cascade failure of many systems failing at the same time.

The best we can do is to keep tabs on it and understand it as best we can, then explain it to whoever will listen.  Perhaps it will help them negotiate their own future as events progress.

Save as Many as you Can.

RE

QuoteIf however you mean people who really understand Collapse, what underlies it inside our current culture and the mechanics of how all the different manifestations fit together the number is far smaller.

The number is indeed small.  Jared Diamond * has some exposure.  For the purposes of argument I'll guess 17 people in a thousand have heard of JD.  Of those 17 are any of them doomers?  No they are not.  You need four times 17 or 68 people on average who have heard of Jared Diamond to find a doomer.

The pool of people needed to find a doomer is now at 4000.  It is going to take even more than that who will understand that the deep state actively suppresses doomerism, and that doom is baked in the cake even if more become aware of it, because of Silent American Censorship ** .

But lets stay with the one in four thousand people is a seriously informed doomer.  Not a run of the mill 'activist' who just needs an issue to bitch about without any real understanding of it.  Mommy and daddy issues float their boat.  Not an understanding of the graph on the left.  You meet them, and you think they understand, but they do not.  This is OK.  Sane people think there is more sanity than there actually is.

The population of Canada and the US combined is about 377,000,000.  This number divided by 4000 gives:


94,250

Less than my compromise number by 750 people and I did not choose 17 and 4 to make the numbers work out.  I picked them because I think they are reasonable guesses.  This suggests the number of people who know about active Homeland Security Censorship are limited to those who actually experience it, and not all of them.

* Do all doomers know about Jared?  No, but I assume most do.

** Veg is one of these privileged few.  He knows his you Tube Channel will be stuck at 1000 subscribers for all eternity.  Algorithms have seen to it.  Who wrote those algorithms, and why?  Unfortunately I know.

Quote from: K-Dog on Apr 30, 2024, 10:05 AMThe number is indeed small.  Jared Diamond * has some exposure.  For the purposes of argument I'll guess 17 people in a thousand have heard of JD.

I'd bet that is a huge overestimate.  It's not really critical though how precisely you guess how many people are well informed about collapse, it's enough to know that relative to the size of the population as a whole it is small and because it is small these people are easily marginalized and portrayed as cranks.

If you're one of the people trying to get the word out also, you have to be really careful about how you portray things, because you'll immediately turn people off.  If you portray the situation as bad as it really is, people either won't believe it or if they do become so hopelessly depressed they don't see what you can do to make a difference.  If you portray it as a consequence of Capitalism, most Amerikans will dismiss it as Commie propaganda.  If you blame the rich, it's because you're jealous, along with being stupid and lazy.  If you tell them they have to give up their cars, they wonder why life would be worth living? lol.

So it's pretty hard to tell the truth and make any headway with it.

RE

Quote from: RE on Apr 30, 2024, 01:25 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Apr 30, 2024, 10:05 AMThe number is indeed small.  Jared Diamond * has some exposure.  For the purposes of argument I'll guess 17 people in a thousand have heard of JD.

I'd bet that is a huge overestimate.  It's not really critical though how precisely you guess how many people are well informed about collapse, it's enough to know that relative to the size of the population as a whole it is small and because it is small these people are easily marginalized and portrayed as cranks.

If you're one of the people trying to get the word out also, you have to be really careful about how you portray things, because you'll immediately turn people off.  If you portray the situation as bad as it really is, people either won't believe it or if they do become so hopelessly depressed they don't see what you can do to make a difference.  If you portray it as a consequence of Capitalism, most Amerikans will dismiss it as Commie propaganda.  If you blame the rich, it's because you're jealous, along with being stupid and lazy.  If you tell them they have to give up their cars, they wonder why life would be worth living? lol.

So it's pretty hard to tell the truth and make any headway with it.

RE