QuoteNo one cared about the geosciences...couldn't ask the right questions.

Isn't that the truth.

I'll stay away from any answers to what the answers are for any 'right questions', because there is a larger issue here.  Most people can't imagine the world changing at all.

Ma'at was a fundamental concept in ancient Egyptian belief, representing truth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality, and justice. Ma'at was believed to be the cosmic force that ensured the universe operated harmoniously, including the continuity of life, the cycles of nature (like the flooding of the Nile), and the proper functioning of society.

The cycle of the Nile was like a giant water clock that changed with the seasons.  It defined the concept of Ma'at which we can assume for the Egyptians cemented their belief in an unchanging but cyclical world.  For other ancient people the change of seasons generated belief in cycles.  In modern times we are comfortable with 'the more things change, the more they stay the same' contradiction.  We take it as great wisdom.  It is so fucking profound we do not even have a Venn diagram for it.  We are committed to the belief that what goes down must come up.

The idea that "life has 'always been this way' and always will be" is a common cognitive framework.  It influences how individuals think about history, social change, and even their own futures.  We are anchored in the present moment. It takes a deliberate effort to imagine how 'things were' or how they could be. The present moment feels incredibly solid and enduring.

QuoteI think it relates to the degradation of the American education system.

Or total lack thereof.  I say that in an absolute way because thinking critically is something you do or you don't.

America fears education, specifically critical thinking.  Critical thinking is a problem for power.  People on top of exploitation pyramids know that critical thinking is a direct threat to their comfortable perch.

Concentrating on test results, and only teaching by rote ensures that critical thinking skills do not develop.  An educated populace equipped with sharp analytical skills (good critical thinking) will chew their propaganda before they swallow it down,  Power can't have that.  People might even write their own propaganda and try and change the narrative.

The issue is less what we might argue is under the ground, and more about any desire to talk about it at all.


* critical thinking (for the uninformed) is nothing more than the activity of trying to find out if what you read and hear is true or not.  You question the facts thrown at you.  You try and read between the lines.  You go down the rabbit hole with an open mind.  It is not magic, it is a learned skill, and a sad fact of the human condition is that critical thinking must be taught.  It is not a natural idea like getting pagan about the changing of seasons.  And you have to know that some people lie all the time and have no interest in telling truth.  A lack of interest that seems to be proportional to an individuals material condition.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jul 27, 2025, 09:48 AM

QuoteI think it relates to the degradation of the American education system.

Or total lack thereof.

Well, that depends on where and when. Certainly a decent private school education was available when I went to it, and my kids both had decent K-12 schools in the 21st century. As best I could tell anyway. I don't believe that I can judge the quality by what happened AFTER high school, if only because my kids had parents that gave a shit. That has to be here somewhere as well.

It is what you make of it perhaps.

Quote from: K-DogI say that in an absolute way because thinking critically is something you do or you don't.

Well, okay, but how many people claimed to be critical thinkers while screwing the pooch? 

Quote from: K-DogAmerica fears education, specifically critical thinking.  Critical thinking is a problem for power.  People on top of exploitation pyramids know that critical thinking is a direct threat to their comfortable perch.

I can't say I know anything about what America fears. In a system as big as this country you can find supporting evidence for about any relative position you'd like. And there is always shitty ideas being sold daily. Recently we've got like being woke, the immigrant takeover, folks who dress up and...folks who are supposed to not dress up.......fairness without regard to race, color and creed appears to be on the downswing, and subserviance to morons and political correctness on the upswing.

I think if you polled 100 Americans, 99 of them would say they have fine critical thinking skills. I know perfectly educated people (a lady with 2 bachelors, 3 masters, an education junkie...speaks 5 languages as well, originally from Spain) and she frustrates the PISS out of me because she can't see anything outside of her own perspective. Absolutely blind. Certainly doesn't fear education. But I'm not so certain that education and critical thinking are correlated. Might be. Some. Maybe more than I think. But I wouldn't line those 2 up 1:1.

Quote from: K-DogConcentrating on test results, and only teaching by rote ensures that critical thinking skills do not develop.  An educated populace equipped with sharp analytical skills (good critical thinking) will chew their propaganda before they swallow it down,  Power can't have that.

I don't assign motives to "power" anymore than I do the "average American". The average American has one testicle and one breast...a difficult beast to find. I get the idea that rich folks have more say in what happens in America than normal folk, but that has been going on since the Robber Barons. Or earlier....the country was founded for the good of all (yuck yuck yuck) otherwise known as rich white MALE property owners, still around in their oligarch form.

Quote* critical thinking (for the uninformed) is nothing more than the activity of trying to find out if what you read and hear is true or not.  You question the facts thrown at you.  You try and read between the lines.  You go down the rabbit hole with an open mind.  It is not magic, it is a learned skill, and a sad fact of the human condition is that critical thinking must be taught.  It is not a natural idea like getting pagan about the changing of seasons.  And you have to know that some people lie all the time and have no interest in telling truth.  A lack of interest that seems to be proportional to an individuals material condition.

Trying to convince someone already in the condition of "uninformed" to suddenly critically think? Your explanation as to HOW is fine...but....HOW do you get them to...DO....anything? Lately I haven't been able to get a woman who speaks 5 languages and has 5 academic degrees to dig herself out of a hole of her own making....took 90 minutes to go through her latest email point by point and be nice, while demonstrating without using foul language that you can still be dumb as dirt with plenty of degrees when you have an interest in NOT wanting to critically think.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jul 27, 2025, 09:48 AM

QuoteI think it relates to the degradation of the American education system.

Or total lack thereof.  I say that in an absolute way because thinking critically is something you do or you don't.

Education was a victim of Capitalism and Women's Liberation.  Prior to the 1970s, Teaching  was one of the few career track jobs  dominated by well educated women where salaries were on a par with men.  As time went by, the private sector salaries for educated workers grew faster than government jobs, pulling educated workers of both genders out of teaching.  Simultaneously, as more families required 2 incomes to keep pace with inflation, you had an increase in the number of latchkey kids unsupervised after school.  Single parent families increased with the divorce rate.  Behavior problems became systemic with drugs and mainstreaming of ADHD and other developmeental problems.  Class sizes were increased with budget cutting and teaching became ever harder as ever less qualified people were attracted to the career.

It was in bad shape by the time I tried the profession in the 90s.  Can't imagine what it must be like today.

RE

Critical thinking must be taught.  I stand by that in spite of a lot of educated people not being able to critically think. 

Obedience and rebellion are human qualities of a social nature.  Both interfere with critical thinking. 

Not only must critical thinking be taught, it requires a mental disposition that has a reasonable delight in questions, and some human meat packages question nothing and have no desire to. 

The natural tendency is to unquestionably eat the corn pone that is provided to you.  Or to spit it out and deny it has any value at all.

I think for economically comfortable people it's mainly a question of laziness.  If it's not affecting their lives, who cares?  For those who are struggling economically, they have so many of their own immediate problems to worry about there's no time or energy to consider the bigger social problems and their underlying causes.  It's also why you find that it's mostly gray hairs who think about this stuff.  Besides having the necessary experience and understanding of history, they also have the time.  Retired, kids are grown, what else to occupy your mind while you kick back in the recliner sipping a marguerita while your servant cuts your toenails?



RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jul 28, 2025, 11:41 AMCritical thinking must be taught.  I stand by that in spite of a lot of educated people not being able to critically think. 

I do not believe critical thinking must be taught. I believe it can also be deduced along the path of normal problem solving, and when it's usefulness is revealed, it can blossom into a full blown skill set through practice.

I'm not sure education has anything to do with it either. I have seen craftsman do amazing things, things they have learned through practice, experimentation, building on skills over the years to be able to tihnk their way through amazingly complex issues...in their areas of expertise. The question then becoming, can they apply the way they learned to become experts in one field, and apply the same logic and theory to others.

Quote from: K-DogObedience and rebellion are human qualities of a social nature.  Both interfere with critical thinking.

Obedience to the laws of mathematics does not interfere with critical thinking. Rebellion doesn't have much to do with the science side of critical thinking, if your argument is that critical thinking is mostly psychological...well...I don't see that easily.

Quote from: K-DogNot only must critical thinking be taught, it requires a mental disposition that has a reasonable delight in questions, and some human meat packages question nothing and have no desire to.

Delight in questions....and then the intellect to answer them. Nothing wrong with delighting in questions....answer the rights ones and you can earn a reputation for yourself at the national or even international levels. 

Quote from: RE on Jul 28, 2025, 05:21 PMRetired, kids are grown, what else to occupy your mind while you kick back in the recliner sipping a marguerita while your servant cuts your toenails?
RE

Don't retire. Use what at that age is excellent vacation leave to do your hobbys and whatnot (newest used motorcycle is about 4 days out...WOOHOO!!) and then take advantage of the resources available of others who want only the best critical thinking applied to their particular questions.

Critical thinking isn't just 'deduced' it requires breaking social conditioning. Craftsmen excel in their field, but can they question authority?

For critical thinking to be deduced a person would have to experience a 'social contradiction' as significant personal experience.

Like Nietzsche watching a horse getting whipped.

And as authentic human experience is increasingly replaced by image, the probability of experiencing a social contradiction vanishes.  Contradictions become just another image, nothing more.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jul 29, 2025, 05:52 AMCritical thinking isn't just 'deduced' it requires breaking social conditioning.

I can agree with that. But that doesn't require being taught, some can be led to it by circumstance. I can actually name the 11 month time span when I acquired it. It was primarily related to learning statistics and their use in...everything.

Quote from: K-DogFor critical thinking to be deduced a person would have to experience a 'social contradiction' as significant personal experience.

Yes! This is true. I was told something was true by a national expert. And I asked the question..."is it?". And then demonstrated that PhD's put their pants on one leg at a time like everyone else and might not know dick even within their own specialty.

And then this made be cocky and I began thinking this way everywhere, including peak oil. The world is much simpler when you have the ability to demystify it in real time.

Can't say I apply it much to social/relative/poltical circumstances though. Too much "it is half a dozen, not 6!" type nonsense.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jul 29, 2025, 05:52 AMCritical thinking isn't just 'deduced' it requires breaking social conditioning.

I think this is true in most cases, unless you start to think criitically before social conditioning has had time to set in.  My first experience came in Sunday School, when claims in the Bible didn't make sense to me.  In fact, the whole idea that the Bible was the Word of God didn't seem plausible.  I couldn't see why the various authors of each chapter were any different than regular writers.  Anybody could claim that God spoke to them, but if you say that God speaks to you, generally people think you are crazy.

So anyhow, I started arguing with my Sunday School teacher about stories in the Bible I found suspicious.  Later in life I realized most people don't bother questioning the Bible, they accept it as true on faith.  Perhaps because if they do question it while young their parents punish them.  My parents weren't very religious and from different faiths.  They didn't try to make me accept the stories as God's revealed Truth.

Religion is probably the main thing which destroys critical thinking early in life.  Once it's been squashed, it's hard to get back.

RE

If you think critically then quite often your thoughts and opinions will diverge from the prevailing social narrative. This poses a problem as there will be some social pressure to conform. The greater the pressure the more likely people will yield in order to fit in. These types of social dynamics will put a brake on "out of the box" thinking. I don't think you can necessarily attribute this entirely to the elite as some of it relates to humans tribal nature.

Thinking critically is one thing but it also takes a certain character to act out or to follow through despite the potential stigma you will face. Quite often people don't want to hear the truth and would rather you follow the herd. Speaking out or thinking differently actively challenges the social narrative which many will find uncomfortable and perhaps even disturbing.

Quote from: monsta666 on Jul 29, 2025, 03:16 PMIf you think critically then quite often your thoughts and opinions will diverge from the prevailing social narrative.

Sure. But disagreeing with prevailing social narrative doesn't require critical thinking. It just requires disagreeing with prevailing social narrative for any reason. Potheads can disagree with the prevailing social narrative of reefer madness back in the day just because they like pot. No critical thinking required, just...disagreement.

Quote from: monsta666This poses a problem as there will be some social pressure to conform.

Like THAT hasn't existed since the dawn of time? All it took a couple of centuries ago was being declared a witch to get burned at the stake...there is some "social pressure to conform" right there.

Quote from: Monsta666Thinking critically is one thing but it also takes a certain character to act out or to follow through despite the potential stigma you will face.

Nah. It wasn't hard. You just had to know some science, put together the logic and presto.....peak oil in 1990? Oh, let me detail the absurdity! Want to repeat it again in the late 90's my Dear Dr. Campbell? Oh I don't think so! Etc etc.

Quote from: monsta666Quite often people don't want to hear the truth and would rather you follow the herd.

And when the "truth" is just a belief system...and shouldn't be followed? Now we are talking about what...religion? Cults? Or just raging ignorance on a particular topic, with those ahead of their times treated poorly until as time goes by....folks realize it was the herd that was full of crap? And then folks get famous! Hubbert ran that route to some extent. Blasted for saying something silly in 1956...accolades for getting it right in 1970....then trashed again when it turns out his idea was incomplete in nature and others were left to explain why and solve the next peak oil using modern understanding.

Quote from: monsta666Speaking out or thinking differently actively challenges the social narrative which many will find uncomfortable and perhaps even disturbing.

Indeed. There were some years where it was touch and go, but once folks handed over the resources necessary to prove the different thinking....accolades!

Quote from: TDoS on Jul 29, 2025, 05:17 PMAnd when the "truth" is just a belief system...and shouldn't be followed? Now we are talking about what...religion? Cults? Or just raging ignorance on a particular topic, with those ahead of their times treated poorly until as time goes by....folks realize it was the herd that was full of crap?

Certainly a significant and devastating problem when applied to MAGA and El Trumpo.  Peak Oil is hardly worth a mention as failures of critical thinking go.  On the other hand,, the Big Ugly Budget Bill and supporting Israelii Genocide in Gaza are seismic faiures of critical thinking.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jul 30, 2025, 12:46 AMPeak Oil is hardly worth a mention as failures of critical thinking go.

Depends on who, and how many, fell for it hook, line and sinker. And with peak oil the answer was PhD's, enough to support legions of websites, and every one of them demonstrating a catastrophic inability to think critically.

Quote from: REOn the other hand,, the Big Ugly Budget Bill and supporting Israelii Genocide in Gaza are seismic faBig ugiures of critical thinking.

RE

Big ugly budgets are just typical political horsehit, employed by both sides against the other going back to at least McCarthyism. As far as supporting Israel and their happy destruction of Gaza....that mess I don't even know what to think. Hamas pulled the pin on October 7th, and gave Israel the excuse it needed, and the rest is just.....awful.

Quote from: TDoS on Jul 30, 2025, 04:37 PMAs far as supporting Israel and their happy destruction of Gaza....that mess I don't even know what to think. Hamas pulled the pin on October 7th, and gave Israel the excuse it needed, and the rest is just.....awful.

If you think October 7th was an excuse your brain is stuck in childhood.  But I'll take your comment as a hyperbolic attempt to relate the fact that it appears nobody in America seems to give a shit about Palestine.  Expressing what your really mean can be difficult.  So I will understand.

Sometimes telling right from wrong is not rocket science.  Perhaps this will help.  The guy in the upper right speaks.

180,000 deaths, 90% of which are innocent civilians. We're talking about schools bombed, hospitals bombed.  We're talking about kids being shot in the head. Gaza being the number one place in the world for child amputees because Israeli snipers try to ruin their lives and shoot them in the leg, shoot them in the arm.

He put down the little food he had, no box, just scraps: half a bag of rice and lentils he'd found on the ground, torn and scattered. And still, he thanked us. Thank you. This little boy had walked 12 kilometers just to get there. 12 kilometers.

Look at him. Kneeling, I watched as he set his meager food on the ground. Then he placed his frail, emaciated hands.  Dirty and skeletal on my cheeks.  He kissed me, and said again, "Thank you," in English. Then he gathered his things and walked back to the group.

Suddenly, pepper spray, tear gas, stun grenades. Bullets shooting at feet. The crowd panicked, and ran. The IDF was firing to control the people along the Morab corridor.  Shooting into the crowd.

Palestinians civilians dropped to the ground, wounded.

Amir wasn't one of them at first.  Amir had walked 12 kilometers for food, received nothing but scraps, thanked us for it.

And then the IDF shot him.

He died.

2025 Gaza Strip aid distribution killings

QuoteOn the other hand,, the Big Ugly Budget Bill and supporting Israelii Genocide in Gaza are seismic faiures of critical thinking.

When a cow wants to moo with the herd, any excuse will do.