Some people don't care if they are hated.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2026, 05:09 PMI don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Cocaine doesn't make you incoherent, in fact it increases clarity and your speed of thinking. Dr. Williiam Halstead who revolutionized surgery was a coke addict, Steve Jobs said LSD was "one of the two or three most important things I have done in life.", Freud considered cocaine a "wonder drug", and Thomas Edison was addicted to Vin Mariani, a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves.  As I said before, your perception of all drugs as having the same neurological effects as alcohol is completely wrong.

QuoteSo some folks take drugs to hallucinate in ways that just being a normal alkie or junkie can't experience?

Yes. See the above.

QuoteI will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass.

Far as LSD goes for you, that's probably a good idea.  Looking into your unconscious mind would likely lead you to a very bad trip.  You might discover what a complete asshole you are.


RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2026, 12:01 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2026, 05:09 PMI don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Cocaine doesn't make you incoherent, in fact it increases clarity and your speed of thinking.

I'll take your word for it. And that a highly addictive drug has that capability as well.

Quote from: REDr. Williiam Halstead who revolutionized surgery was a coke addict, Steve Jobs said LSD was "one of the two or three most important things I have done in life.", Freud considered cocaine a "wonder drug", and Thomas Edison was addicted to Vin Mariani, a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves.  As I said before, your perception of all drugs as having the same neurological effects as alcohol is completely wrong.

Well, with all these famous enthusiasts what could be wrong with it? I wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it? How enlightened they felt, and wonderful, prior to...you know....dying from it.

I will grant that those who enjoy doing addictive and occasionally outright lethal drugs might..indeed...enjoy them. For some strange reason, maybe because we were lacking folks like your famous examples in the holler, they all just seemed to be stoned halfwits, dropouts and generally undesireable. Maybe there is a difference between backwoods dopers and the high and mighty kind that live in the cities?

Quote from: RE

QuoteI will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass.

Far as LSD goes for you, that's probably a good idea.

Far as ANY of them go, it is probably a good idea. Dad was a mean drunk, and as far as enlightenment through drugs, I've been quite happy with mountaintops, racetracks, and the occasional grand western vista.

Quote from: RELooking into your unconscious mind would likely lead you to a very bad trip.  You might discover what a complete asshole you are.
RE

That is a possibility. Or it might reveal the attitudes and capabilities that landed Joe Nobody from the holler where I am in life. Perhaps an asshole, as are you I would venture, but also someone who has arrived where I am today. As opposed to where some "enlightened" others have arrived. Not you of course, but those dead bodies left behind after folks are overly "enlightened" through the injestion of various chemical compounds.  To each their own is my motto.

Or you could take a trip on 50x Salvia and after you look down on the lizard skin covering your hand you can have a conversation with god.  No fooling him.  No way.  You might feel the life of insects even through the walls of the house.  Little sparks of life everywhere around you.  You can feel the presence of the demon in the lake who has no power over you.  And you can do all that in 15 minutes.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 06, 2026, 06:40 AMI wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it?

6000 people/year die in motorcycle crashes too.  At least with coke, it's only your own stupidity that causes the death.  On a bike, you risk other people's stupidity causing it.  In any event, all worthwhile things carry some risk.

Far as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Anyhow, as I said earlier, your attitude stems from childhood.  It's clearly a reaction to having an alcoholic father.  You never got over that.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2026, 11:38 AMOr you could take a trip on 50x Salvia and after you look down on the lizard skin covering your hand you can have a conversation with god.  No fooling him.  No way.  You might feel the life of insects even through the walls of the house.  Little sparks of life everywhere around you.  You can feel the presence of the demon in the lake who has no power over you.  And you can do all that in 15 minutes.

Is a drug induced hallucination of having a conversation with God...real? But I understand drugs helping someone to believe it might be. In 15 minutes at Laguna Seca I can do maybe 14.2 laps and see God, watch my life flash before my eyes half a dozen times, feel every bump in the asphalt in turn 6 on my left knee, launch my stomache into my throat entering the Corkscrew, and not give a crap about insects or the walls of my house. No demons involved in this high at all.....just a pure celebration of life in an all natural way. Maybe folks take drugs to see God because doing it my way requires, you know, DOING something other than popping a pill?

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2026, 11:52 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 06, 2026, 06:40 AMI wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it?

6000 people/year die in motorcycle crashes too.

Indeed. And car crashes. And falling down stairs. Drowning. Robbery gone bad. Pulling a gun on the wrong person (seen this one before). The causes of death are indeed legion. But none of these are voluntary acts(well, pulling a gun on someone might be). Taking drugs to get high and dying is a choice. Robbers don't plan on dying in the act of robbing...but it happens. The suicidal might drive a car knowing they plan on using it to kill themselves, but normal folk don't. The suicidal might swim knowing they can't...and drown. Pulling a gun on the wrong person is a voluntary act....that can turn out poorly depending on who you are pulling on.

Come on RE, you aren't required to demonstrate that statistics can lie, and liars use statistics in front of someone who can spot either or both a mile away.

Quote from: REAt least with coke, it's only your own stupidity that causes the death.

If by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Quote from: REOn a bike, you risk other people's stupidity causing it.

That is called life. Be it an idiot cager killing you, or getting hit by space junk falling from the sky. In neither case is it you deciding that "Hey! Lets do some cool drugs today and hope I don't overdose, or my dealer didn't substitute in a little too much drain cleaner to the mix". It isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Quote from: REIn any event, all worthwhile things carry some risk.

LIFE carrys risk, and is indeed worthwhile. And then there are all things we do in life that raise or lower our chances of making it to the average or median age before croaking more naturally.

Hunter Thompson and reaching the finish line....best quote ever. He got it. Drugs, motorcycles, parachuting without a parachute, whatever. We all choose our brand of risk, but I think Hunter had the idea right.

So I let the drug users use drugs. And I hope that I don't low side in Turn 6 at Laguna and slide off the cliff awaiting on the outside of the corner.

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Outstanding! I imagine that is why it is legal in all 50 states. Oops...wait....for some strange reason....it isn't. You make it sound so safe....I wonder why it isn't legal? All those straight laced folks just being a drag on a happy go lucky drug culture types?

Quote from: REAnyhow, as I said earlier, your attitude stems from childhood.  It's clearly a reaction to having an alcoholic father.  You never got over that.
RE

Thank you for that Mr Dr of Psychology RE. I remember when you tried to play geologist once, it was a riot. At least now with AI you could probably do better I bet. I might agree with your amateur shrink routine though, but only because I do analytics for a living, and logically, it seems reasonable that some of my life choices and current behavior stem from childhood events. I imagine a Shrink AI would say the same thing. 

But I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper. So it isnt' apropos anyway, unless I just wanted to be some alky in the bag all the time. Which obviously I didn't.

So while maybe I can agree that a little of some part of each of us probably can be traced back that far, it doesn't necessary express itself as much as some might think. But a little...somewhere...somehow..maybe. 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 08, 2026, 05:34 PMIf by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Stupid is not knowing what dosage has potential to kill you.  Cocaine doesn't corrupt your ability to know that.  Heroin might, but if it made you that stupid, you already took too much, so you were stupid before you loaded the syringe.  In any event, Heroin is not on the list of drugs I find worthwhile.

QuoteIt isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Ever listen to the list of potential side effects of FDA approved drugs?  Not even taken at overdose levels, DEATH is often on the list.

QuoteHunter Thompson and reaching the finish line....best quote ever. He got it. Drugs, motorcycles, parachuting without a parachute, whatever. We all choose our brand of risk, but I think Hunter had the idea right.

QuoteBut I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper.

Alcohol is a drug and it is physically addictive.  It's just a more commonly used form of "dope" that's legal.  Nothing wrong with you decision not to use drugs, but your attitude is reflected in your writing about the reasons why.  Your use of pejoratives like "doper" and "alky" demonstrates disrespect toward those who do choose to use them.

Quote from: TDoS

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Outstanding! I imagine that is why it is legal in all 50 states. Oops...wait....for some strange reason....it isn't. You make it sound so safe....I wonder why it isn't legal? All those straight laced folks just being a drag on a happy go lucky drug culture types?

Actually, it's currently being tested  for use in relieving symptoms of depression.



RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 12:38 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 08, 2026, 05:34 PMIf by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Stupid is not knowing what dosage has potential to kill you.

Or not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Quote from: K-Dog

QuoteIt isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Ever listen to the list of potential side effects of FDA approved drugs?  Not even taken at overdose levels, DEATH is often on the list.

I am familiar with over the counter med consequences. And I do listen to the potential side effects, as do my doctors. They moved my medication for high blood pressure around just 6 months ago, watching out for potential side effects related to my kidneys.

How many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

Quote from: RE

QuoteBut I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper.

Alcohol is a drug and it is physically addictive.

Indeed. Such is the way of drugs.  Good thing I have a medical professional keeping an eye on mine!

Quote from: REBut your attitude is reflected in your writing about the reasons why.  Your use of pejoratives like "doper" and "alky" demonstrates disrespect toward those who do choose to use them.

Indeed it does. Very observant. Just as I use the pejorative "cager" for those who are. And "Happy McPeaksters" for those who don't know geology.

You've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.
[and] Actually, it's currently being tested  for use in relieving symptoms of depression.

Outstanding! And with experience and degrees in and around geology and engineering, practical experience using both, a professional understanding of statistics and probabalistic modeling, peak oilers would never have been misled by various internet experts and PhDs. Give me some more time, maybe I could figure out LSD as well.

But until it is figured out...it isn't figured out. Like peak oil.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 05:34 AMOr not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Exactly!  Thus drugs perform an important social function.  The overdosers win a Darwin Award. 😀

QuoteHow many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

You really need a doctor for this?  Doctors just follow political guidelines with Schedule A illegal drugs.  If you wanna understand the interactions, you need to know the biochemistry of how the drug works.

QuoteIndeed. Such is the way of drugs.  Good thing I have a medical professional keeping an eye on mine!

See the above.  Doctors just tell you taking illegal drugs are bad for you.  Then they go home and take them themselves. lol.

QuoteYou've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

I look down on Stupid People, not Drug Users.  The two sets are not identical.

QuoteBut until it is figured out...it isn't figured out. Like peak oil.

You have been warned before about dragging Peak Oil into unrelated discussions.  I gave you a pass on this post, next time I will trash it.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 12:59 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 05:34 AMOr not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Exactly!  Thus drugs perform an important social function.  The overdosers win a Darwin Award. 😀

While something of a dystopian view....I can't say I disagree with it. I believe in personal freedom, and that includes folks doing whatever stupid shit they want even if it kills them.

Quote from: RE

QuoteHow many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

You really need a doctor for this?

I don't. But approximately half of humans are below average in intelligence and there is an argument to be made that they certainly do. 

QuoteDoctors just follow political guidelines with Schedule A illegal drugs.  If you wanna understand the interactions, you need to know the biochemistry of how the drug works.

Half of humans are below average in intelligience, meaning they can't necessarily read, let alone even know what biochemistry is, let alone chemical interactions.

Quote from: RE

QuoteYou've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

I look down on Stupid People, not Drug Users.  The two sets are not identical.

You know what a Venn diagram is....want to bet an overlap of 70% between stupid and drug users wouldn't be a surprise? So when looking down on stupid people....well.....do I actually have to say it?

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 03:28 PMYou know what a Venn diagram is....want to bet an overlap of 70% between stupid and drug users wouldn't be a surprise?

It's probably higher than that.  Probably 90% of people who take drugs are stupid.  So are 90% of the people who don't take drugs.  Being of average intelligence is still pretty fucking stupid.    As criteria for identifying stupid people, drug use fails because the vast majority of Homo Saps are stupid.  So making such a bet would itself be stupid, it's not a good discriminator.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 07:11 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 03:28 PMYou know what a Venn diagram is....want to bet an overlap of 70% between stupid and drug users wouldn't be a surprise?

It's probably higher than that.  Probably 90% of people who take drugs are stupid.

Well hot damn. We actually can agree on something. I say we start a clock, using a calendar most likely, and see what the frequency of it happening might be. A year? A decade? Who knows!

Quote from: RESo are 90% of the people who don't take drugs.

Nonsense. That is just your ego speaking. You are on the high side of average, but you aren't the only one with functioning neurons at a level beyond that of Joe Average. And then some. I'll include even K-Dog in here on general principles based on nothing more than my personal experience dealing with EE's.

Quote from: REBeing of average intelligence is still pretty fucking stupid. 

To folks on the high side of the distribution, sure it looks that way. And those of us on that high side find other ways to differentiate ourselves from even that herd. I am quite familiar with how that works, if only because I can name the folks, and their qualifications, of those who can do it to me.

Quote from: REAs criteria for identifying stupid people, drug use fails because the vast majority of Homo Saps are stupid.  So making such a bet would itself be stupid, it's not a good discriminator.
RE

Again, a personal perspective based on relative differences. My preference runs towards demonstrable critical thinking in real time, internal consistency in thought processes, the usual stuff. My preferences for sorting the herd, might not do yours.

However, as I said before (on behalf of those of us on the high side of the herd) it turns out that destroying multiple decades of accepted research on some topic can sure accelerate others noticing. Don't even give a crap what your education is at that point. But, amusingly, they tag you with the Piled Higher and Deeper moniker in front of your name anyway. 

To each their own.

QuoteI'll include even K-Dog in here on general principles.

That's big of you, would you like thanks?  If you want thanks keep trying.

Smart people will experiment with mind altering substances.  Smart people however will not continue to do so after the novelty fades.  Smart people know there is no 'there' there after initially experiencing the altered mind perspective.  It becomes an intense nothingburger in a way.

There are lessons to be learned by the mind altering experience, but the truth is there is really not much there to learn after you break on through to the other side.  A novice learns that perceptions can't be counted on.  Perhaps you learn to beware of absolute truth, truth is indeed out there, but that does not mean you have the ability to know it.  It may induce humility in the right person.  Not to be confused with the person who needs it. 

That is a valuable lesson which substances can indeed induce.  You learn that you are not the center of the universe.  That is a good thing.  There are a handful of very profound insights which may be revealed to an altered mind.  But seeds do not grow on barren ground, and the lessons depend on the novelty, which is soon gone. 

Continued drug use embraces narcissism.  It is high on the self-indulgence list.  It is as 'high' on it as you can get.  Pun intended.  Some lessons once learned should not need repetition.

An altered mind can be a useful pit stop, but it is not a vocation.

People without ambition will not agree.