Sigh.  I'll try to spell it out for you.  I didn't realize EE's were chemically challenged.

Normally, a battery stores its energy by the difference in electric potential between the cathode and anode, which exchange electrons in an oxidation-reduction reaction.  One gets oxidized, the other reduced, and the electrons drop down in their potential making the trip.  This is what makes your electric motors go round as they pass by the magnets in the motor.

As this process occurs in the typical battery, the cathode gets dissolved and metal gets deposited on the anode, that's how you do plating.  Fully discharged, there's nothing left of the cathode, this batt is non-rechargeable and dead.  However, transition metals have several oxidation states they can exist in, so in rechargeable batts when the metal ion moves across the electrolyte solution to the anode it changes state but your cathode doesn't dissolve away.  When you recharge, you push the electrons back up on the cathode side, and it's ready to go again.  However, repeated cycles of this wear out both ccathode and anode so you can't keep doing it.  Rechargeable batt now dead also.

Flow batts get rid of the cathode and anode and replace them with liquids which are suspensions of nanoparticles in water.  You have a tank that holds charged up nano particles and a discharge tank, sorta like the gray water in your RV waste tank.  When you go to the filling station, you empty your discharged nanoelectrolyte tank and refill your charged tank.  You drive away.

At the filling station, your discharged nanoelectrolyte suspension gets recharged, by electricity generated from a non-ff source.  Then when the next customer shows up, this charged up stuff is pumped into his tank.  The fluid itself never disappears.

The nanoparticles are only necessary in order to turn what in normal batts are solids into a liquid you can pump and exchange easily.  The tinier the particles, the greater the density you can squeeze into a given volume without making the fluid too viscous to pump and keeping the particles suspended.  Big particles sink, you can't do this with them.  The greater the density of particles, the greater the energy density you can store this way.

Hopefully this is clear to the chemically challenged doomers inhabiting this website.

RE

Quote from: RE on Dec 27, 2023, 11:59 AMSigh.  I'll try to spell it out for you.  I didn't realize EE's were chemically challenged.

Normally, a battery stores its energy by the difference in electric potential between the cathode and anode, which exchange electrons in an oxidation-reduction reaction.  One gets oxidized, the other reduced, and the electrons drop down in their potential making the trip.  This is what makes your electric motors go round as they pass by the magnets in the motor.

As this process occurs in the typical battery, the cathode gets dissolved and metal gets deposited on the anode, that's how you do plating.  Fully discharged, there's nothing left of the cathode, this batt is non-rechargeable and dead.  However, transition metals have several oxidation states they can exist in, so in rechargeable batts when the metal ion moves across the electrolyte solution to the anode it changes state but your cathode doesn't dissolve away.  When you recharge, you push the electrons back up on the cathode side, and it's ready to go again.  However, repeated cycles of this wear out both ccathode and anode so you can't keep doing it.  Rechargeable batt now dead also.

Flow batts get rid of the cathode and anode and replace them with liquids which are suspensions of nanoparticles in water.  You have a tank that holds charged up nano particles and a discharge tank, sorta like the gray water in your RV waste tank.  When you go to the filling station, you empty your discharged nanoelectrolyte tank and refill your charged tank.  You drive away.

At the filling station, your discharged nanoelectrolyte suspension gets recharged, by electricity generated from a non-ff source.  Then when the next customer shows up, this charged up stuff is pumped into his tank.  The fluid itself never disappears.

The nanoparticles are only necessary in order to turn what in normal batts are solids into a liquid you can pump and exchange easily.  The tinier the particles, the greater the density you can squeeze into a given volume without making the fluid too viscous to pump and keeping the particles suspended.  Big particles sink, you can't do this with them.  The greater the density of particles, the greater the energy density you can store this way.

Hopefully this is clear to the chemically challenged doomers inhabiting this website.

RE

they have been pushing flow batteries for the 20 years I have been paying attention. So far they have all been high dollar research monsters. Putting "nano" onto everything is a new buzzword for alternative energy and great for grant farming. Everything is nano this, nano that. So far absolutely nothing you can price, buy and install... Flow batteries so far have been an alternative energy equivalent to fusion power; always 10 years away. Even if they make it work lithium is getting cheaper all the time and the newer ones are using half the lithium and no cobalt. It's hard for a new tech to break through when retail lithium is down as low as $300 a kW Hr for a 3000-10000 cycle battery. There are some low tech stars out there though. I like the sand battery myself or the utility switched hot water heaters and heat pumps. Great potential for storage there. All of these storage techs are going to grow up real fast in the next 10 years. The West is getting desperate for new ways to make and store power and balance loads without putting in a huge power plant. I know here I can install 10 kWHrs of lithium and buy at 4 cents a kWHr and use it during the day when it's 12 cents... 8 cents per kW differential so 0.80 cents a day or $292 a year... 10 year lifespan at least so $2920 of savings... As soon as that number hits a profit level you will not need to build any utility scale storage the home consumer will build and finance it themselves .. that is the future I see ..
Cheers... NF

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Dec 27, 2023, 04:45 PMthey have been pushing flow batteries for the 20 years I have been paying attention. So far they have all been high dollar research monsters. Putting "nano" onto everything is a new buzzword for alternative energy and great for grant farming. Everything is nano this, nano that. So far absolutely nothing you can price, buy and install... Flow batteries so far have been an alternative energy equivalent to fusion power; always 10 years away. Even if they make it work lithium is getting cheaper all the time and the newer ones are using half the lithium and no cobalt. It's hard for a new tech to break through when retail lithium is down as low as $300 a kW Hr for a 3000-10000 cycle battery. There are some low tech stars out there though. I like the sand battery myself or the utility switched hot water heaters and heat pumps. Great potential for storage there. All of these storage techs are going to grow up real fast in the next 10 years. The West is getting desperate for new ways to make and store power and balance loads without putting in a huge power plant. I know here I can install 10 kWHrs of lithium and buy at 4 cents a kWHr and use it during the day when it's 12 cents... 8 cents per kW differential so 0.80 cents a day or $292 a year... 10 year lifespan at least so $2920 of savings... As soon as that number hits a profit level you will not need to build any utility scale storage the home consumer will build and finance it themselves .. that is the future I see ..
Cheers... NF

Lithium has supply issues and environmental issues with the mining.  The choice of metals you can use in a flow batt are much more varied and available, and easier to mine.  The key advantage though is the Liquid state, allowing it to be easily transported in a variety of volumes and pumped between storage tanks for charging and use.

I agree that "nano" is an overused buzzword, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have advantages and applications.  The whole point of this article and the fact they have startup capital is to draw attention to the fact what they have already proven to work overcomes the very problems with flow batts that you mention.  The tech isn't 10 years away, it's here now.

The author also mentions at the end the article that a lot of capital has already been invested in Li batts as the electrical energy storage solution, so even though this is clearly better technology it may not get traction because it has come too late in the race.

The other batts you mention may be better for housing applications, but none of them can work for transportation like a flow batt, AND use the current infrastructure of storage tanks and filling stations with pumps already in place with very little modification.

Cheers.

RE

Which metal?

QuoteIn 2022, DARPA SBIR-funded Influit Energy announced a nonflammable, surface-modified nanoelectrofuel made of a metal oxide suspended in an aqueous solution. The material does not settle out of the solution, even at high concentration and features and energy density higher than Lion batteries. Operating temperatures are -40 to 80 °C.

At work I read the advertising on our products.  Somebody sits around thinking of product advantages that are fabricated yet true.  Like

QuoteIt fits in your pocket.

So it does not use lithium, suggesting giant toxic ponds may not be mandatory for our consuming asses.  Or heavy metals.



Good to know.

So what metal do they use?

Inquiring minds want to know.  But who inquires?

Quote from: K-Dog on Dec 27, 2023, 10:09 PMSo what metal do they use?

Inquiring minds want to know.  But who inquires?

Iron-Chromium or Vanadium appear to be the typical choices for flow batteries, but you could use any of the transition metals that can take on multiple oxidation states for the chemistry.  The potential differences between the states determines what kind of voltage you get out of it. Then you would concern yourself with the density of the material if concerned about weight.  I could see good chemistry out of Manganese, Cobalt, Nickel, Copper or Molybdenum.  Choice of the salt also an important factor, a sulfate or nitrate probably, but maybe chloride or flouride would work.  The solubility of the salt is important for how concentrated you can make the system.  These guys have found one they like which is giving them enough energy density to get 550 to 850 watt-hours per kilogram or higher, as compared to 200 to 350 Wh/kg for a standard EV lithium-ion battery.  That's pretty good.   Depending on the potential difference, how much power you get out of the chemistry would vary.  Weight would be higher than Li batt, but less than a Pb batt unless you have a big potential difference.  Probably good enough for ground transport, not for air transsport.

RE