Quote from: jupiviv on Mar 31, 2024, 01:21 AMSometimes an egg is just an egg.

Interesting response.  You have now met our long time Diner Troll, who will no doubt take this opportunity to pontificate on his generally misanthropic POV and worldview.  I'll be interested to see how much patience you have for it.

RE

Quote from: jupiviv on Mar 31, 2024, 01:21 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Mar 30, 2024, 09:16 PMDefine "sting"?

'We' didn't write this post, you did. And it's pretty clear you thought about it a lot.

I wrote my post. Asking a simple quesiton and then putting a frame of reference of around it. I didn't come up with the idea of somehow being poor comes with a "sting" to it, only asked, and to some extent answered, what someone might think that is.

Quote from: jupivivYou just don't know what to do about it (for good reason) and rationalise that impotence into some kind of special superpower that you imagine wielding over people who 'don't know what poor is'.

Oh, I know what to do about it. And then did it. Solving current "poverty" (as you didn't answer what the sting of it was about, to you) might need to involve a serious redistribution of American wealth with the controls necessary to make it work. Not popular among the oligarchs.

Special superpower? Is that what people who survived being born into poverty have? You might have to elaborate on that one.

Quote from: jupivivWhich is patent bullshit.

Good thing it wasn't my idea then. Any reason you would suppose poverty is a special superpower and then blame me for it being bullshit? It was your idea.

Quote from: TDoSI think collapse is just the result of humans being human...... 

Quote from: jupivivThere is no innate human nature. If there were, the earliest modern humans woulda created and destroyed industrial civ tens of thousands of years ago. The conditions and processes of social organization which led to surplus accumulating slave society, the one we inhabit, are also the ones that created the potential for a universal humanity. But just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Just because eggs can lead to chickens doesn't mean they always do. Sometimes an egg is just an egg.

So no innate human nature is quantified by what we ultimately became and are? Cool. Sounds same as innate to me. Collapse is also part of the consequences of that innate human nature.

A related question that could be pondered is it's opposite, or what makes us unhappy, especially in 2024 which factors seem to be increasing, causing increased unhappiness.
 
  There is a significant amount of economic uncertainty and financial instability, especially in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic. Increased homelessness, going further into debt, and fear of not having a sustainable life.

There is a large increase in social isolation and loneliness, which have been exacerbated by the shift towards remote work and social distancing measures. K-Dog has nailed this one down.

There is constant political polarization and increasing civil unrest, that create feelings of anxiety, fear, and division. This makes any "future" for us very suspect.

Then there is environmental concerns, such as the climate crisis and natural disasters, which can lead to feelings of helplessness and despair, because it is causing such major issues with all of life's sustainable aspects. See Maslow's pyramid of human necessities for happiness. Food and shelter being first.

  Which brings us to unhappiness which makes us unhappy, or mental health issues, such as depression and anxiety, which affects anyone regardless of their circumstances.

As resource depletion continues at a rapid pace, the general atmosphere of living for the majority of humanity is very uncertain. The volatility index is very high.

Quote from: Knarf on Mar 31, 2024, 07:33 AMA related question that could be pondered is it's opposite, or what makes us unhappy, especially in 2024 which factors seem to be increasing, causing increased unhappiness.

And the definitions of those factors, be they "unhappy" or "happy". To some, food on table twice a day is a happy factor. To others, eating out twice a day at nice restaurants is happy, bologna sandwichs unthinkable, and if the personal chef doesn't show up at least twice a week, they are miserable.
Relative terms make the measurements sketchy without a bunch of definitions and explanations in advance of the question, and that is before screening out natural bias, or physical bias, or socio-economic bias.

Quote from: KnarfThere is a significant amount of economic uncertainty and financial instability, especially in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic. Increased homelessness, going further into debt, and fear of not having a sustainable life.

Or fear of not sustainable their once "fine" life. Times of change, regardless of why, generate uncertainty among the populace, and no one likes change. People suffer fear of the unknown no different than the cavemen did. There is some innate stuff right there.

Quote from: KnarfThere is a large increase in social isolation and loneliness, which have been exacerbated by the shift towards remote work and social distancing measures. K-Dog has nailed this one down.
There is constant political polarization and increasing civil unrest, that create feelings of anxiety, fear, and division. This makes any "future" for us very suspect.
Then there is environmental concerns, such as the climate crisis and natural disasters, which can lead to feelings of helplessness and despair, because it is causing such major issues with all of life's sustainable aspects. See Maslow's pyramid of human necessities for happiness. Food and shelter being first.

There is certainly change in the air. Concerns. And I agree with Maslow! The food part of those necessities was occasionally dodgy when I was young, never thought of it as unhappy though? More like....desperate? Hungry...which taught its own lessons, mostly had a roof over my head though except with I was homeless for about 4 months once. But that was more of a plan, rather than some weird combination of circumstances that just landed me on the street.

Quote from: KnarfWhich brings us to unhappiness which makes us unhappy, or mental health issues, such as depression and anxiety, which affects anyone regardless of their circumstances.

As resource depletion continues at a rapid pace, the general atmosphere of living for the majority of humanity is very uncertain. The volatility index is very high.

All of which is true. But another dynamic, particularly on this website, is we all appear to be old. And I never hear about fears discussed in terms of fears for our children? We aren't a sample size of much of anything representative of the world nowadays maybe? Raised in different eras, with different fears, and some of us with obvious predilections and irritations because "I want my end times and I want them now!" has been a mantra going back into the last century.

QuoteThere is no innate human nature. If there were, the earliest modern humans woulda created and destroyed industrial civ tens of thousands of years ago. The conditions and processes of social organization which led to surplus accumulating slave society, the one we inhabit, are also the ones that created the potential for a universal humanity. But just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Just because eggs can lead to chickens doesn't mean they always do. Sometimes an egg is just an egg.

The problems are.  For one not, everyone is the same and that by itself nullifies the innate nature claim.  In the same circumstances one person thrives and another becomes a misfit.  The only thing innate here are the differences.

The biggest problem I have with this conservative defeatist attitude is.  Ok if there actually is innate human nature, what is it?

Society changes people.  What is 'innate' in one society is different than what is 'innate' in another.  Fish can't see the water they swim in, and humans can't know what innate  nature is.  Society changes who we think we are in ways that we can't explain.  What people call innate in their social sea is indistinguishable from what social conditioning has created in them.  Swimming in the 'sea' there is no way to tell the difference.

Years ago John Michael Greer introduced the idea of 'thought-stopper'.  Greer described the idea as statements or thoughts that stop people from talking about things. 

I realized the concept has greater significance.  Some more than others, brains are thinking and consuming resources.  Sugar specifically.  An unsolved problem consumes a lot of resources, and a half-assed solution to a problem can pass for a satisfactory solution to stop thinking which is not reaching conclusion.  Thinking which is consuming energy for no good reason.

Saying something is 'human nature' is one of the most effective thought-stoppers out there.  Right up, there with the world is always changing.  The amount of drugs I would have to consume to make 'the world is always changing' or 'It's just human nature' sound profound would make me very sick.

Quote from: TDoS on Mar 31, 2024, 10:28 AMWe aren't a sample size of much of anything representative of the world nowadays maybe?

Given the aging demographics globally, actually we are fairly representative of the world at large.  The percentage of seniors populating all the industrialized countries is increasing in tandem with the falling birthrate.  We also have Monsta and NF from Gen x & Gen Y I think and Cam who is a millenial though haven't heard from him in a while.  Also, not only our own perspectives are discussed here, recently I posted an article about the overtones of doom running through the Millenial sub-Reddit.  Collapse is definitely not isolated to old folks with their individual collapse issues.  Most of the 1000s of Homo Saps populating the refugee camps at the Mexican border are Gen z & Millenial and their kids, who are Generation Alpha.  Obviously since none are members yet we only hear their perspectives in the articles and videos we put up for discussion, but I think most of us are capable of empathizing, though not all of us are capable of that I am aware also.

So, while it's true that there are aspects of collapse that are subjective and age does play a part in how you see things,  I don't see that as a huge issue here for most of us.  I may not think quite as fast as I used to, but the direction of my thinking today is not that much different than when I was younger.  The problems I have have changed, but so have the problems of the world around us.  You adapt.

RE

Quote from: TDoS on Mar 31, 2024, 07:22 AMI wrote my post. Asking a simple quesiton and then putting a frame of reference of around it. I didn't come up with the idea of somehow being poor comes with a "sting" to it, only asked, and to some extent answered, what someone might think that is.

I get it, you're a troll whose idea of a conversation appears to be preschool tier 'no i said that you cant say that' word salad diaper tantrum. RE noted this and also wondered how long I could tolerate interacting with you. I can answer him right now.

Quote from: K-Dog on Mar 31, 2024, 12:13 PM

QuoteThere is no innate human nature. If there were, the earliest modern humans woulda created and destroyed industrial civ tens of thousands of years ago. The conditions and processes of social organization which led to surplus accumulating slave society, the one we inhabit, are also the ones that created the potential for a universal humanity. But just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. Just because eggs can lead to chickens doesn't mean they always do. Sometimes an egg is just an egg.

The problems are.  For one not, everyone is the same and that by itself nullifies the innate nature claim.  In the same circumstances one person thrives and another becomes a misfit.  The only thing innate here are the differences.

I disagree there are innate differences, which is also positing innate human nature. I'm not only denying a generic 'rationally self-interested' individuality common to all but individuality separate from social determinations in any instance. In fact that notion of individuality is very new. It is completely absent in the ancient world for example. It's the product of the capitalist/industrialist age. The only thing that is innately human is the social, which is necessarily predisposed towards universality.

QuoteSociety changes people.  What is 'innate' in one society is different than what is 'innate' in another.  Fish can't see the water they swim in, and humans can't know what innate  nature is.  Society changes who we think we are in ways that we can't explain.  What people call innate in their social sea is indistinguishable from what social conditioning has created in them.  Swimming in the 'sea' there is no way to tell the difference.

I agree, except that most people can understand how society changes them but in most cases choose not to. What they actually can't understand is how they can change society (mostly because they as alienated individuals can't), and that explains their wilful ignorance re the former.

Quote from: jupiviv on Mar 31, 2024, 02:35 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Mar 31, 2024, 07:22 AMI wrote my post. Asking a simple quesiton and then putting a frame of reference of around it. I didn't come up with the idea of somehow being poor comes with a "sting" to it, only asked, and to some extent answered, what someone might think that is.

I get it, you're a troll whose idea of a conversation appears to be preschool tier 'no i said that you cant say that' word salad diaper tantrum. RE noted this and also wondered how long I could tolerate interacting with you. I can answer him right now.

RE called me a troll decades ago for informing his old website and others at peakoil.com that peak oil in that timeframe was a crock. So sure, if "troll" in his world equates to "capable of precognitive smarts beyond the pale on this topic", okay.

All I did was lay out my version of "sting". And ask what yours might be. Do you not know, or are we supposed to guess?

Quote from: TDoS on Mar 31, 2024, 03:43 PMe a troll decades ago for informing his old website and others at peakoil.com that peak oil in that timeframe was a crock.

Nonsense.  I identified you as a troll because of your behavior, not your choice of subject matter.  You have a single topic you drop in on and post endless repetitive bullshit on while claiming to be a world class expert who won't identify himself while simultaneously dismissing as idiots any number of other people  in a list so long I can't remember all the names who have published material he doesn't agree with.  Hubbert is only one of this list.

Besides using appeal to authority as his primary gimmick and self justification in arguments, he's an insulting, self important, narcissistic and misanthropic braggart whose only excuse for living is that he's inbred Appalachian white trash who was repeatedly beaten with a tire iron by his father for raping his sister before dad took his turn after he got home from work at the coal mine.

His role here on the Diner is the Dog we keep around to kick because he loves any attention he can get and he's a really easy target.   He's totally predictable and can be relied on to drop in and demonstrate hisutter lack of understanding of concepts outside his own narrow specialty, which whether he's right or wrong makes absolutely zero difference to how collapse is progressing along.  He's a broken record with a track that started skipping back in 2006 and keeps playing the same 3 bars of music over and over again.

When I get bored enough of kicking him, I'll delete his posting or give him another ban to cool his heels for a while and come up with a better purpose for living than to troll a website that has close to zero people who read it and of those who do, each and every one of them thinks he's a complete asshole.  Unfortunately, he's like Cool Hand Luke, and no matter how many times you beat on him, he never gets the message.


RE

Not the first article to bemoan the sad reality of modern Amerika, and it won't be the last.  Definitely gets to the heart of the tragic condition of our society though.

https://jalopnik.com/buc-ees-is-the-sickness-at-the-heart-of-america-1851683139

Buc-ee's Is The Sickness At The Heart Of America

RE

Quote from: RE on Nov 29, 2024, 10:13 AMhttps://jalopnik.com/buc-ees-is-the-sickness-at-the-heart-of-america-1851683139
Buc-ee's Is The Sickness At The Heart Of America
RE

Buc-ee's is a riot. When the first one in the state opened up (I think we are scheduled for a couple more soon) the wife and daughter demanded I take them there...and then disappear for awhile during which time they peruse the ambience. They collected the required hat, and the wife got a insulated carry bag for taking lunches to work, and during the hour they ran me off I collected a new firearm.

The place had the interstate offramps clogged with poeple trying to get into, and out of, the lot.

I remember a long time back when gas stations stopped being gas stations and became convenience stores that sold gas, and it has been an interesting transition down through the centuries and decades now.

I agree with the idea of it being "a sad reality" but hey, America is exceptional in many ways...and no one should ever assume that is only on the good side of the equation.

I never heard of Buc-ee's, and life would have been fine if I never had.

Far as I know, there are no Buc-ee's in Alaska...yet.

RE

Quote from: RE on Dec 21, 2024, 10:53 AMFar as I know, there are no Buc-ee's in Alaska...yet.

RE

Total enshitification!  It is a farm and we are the crop.

Quote from: K-Dog on Dec 21, 2024, 10:41 AMI never heard of Buc-ee's, and life would have been fine if I never had.

Probably. But when you start seeing the beaver marketing materials on shirts, hats and flags flying from the radio mast of cars, you'll know what it is!

They do have damn fine beef jerky, in more flavors and varieties than I've ever heard of before. The wife collected me about 4 or 5 small sample bags for taste testing.