Just the cable from the car to the house by itself will be worth 100 bucks.  $40 worth of 14 Gauge wire won't cut it.  You need 10 Gauge wire at least.  An inverter that can put out 9.6 Kw won't be cheap.

QuoteThe gauge of wire used for EV charging depends on the charging capacity and the distance between the charging station and the electrical panel. Generally, for residential charging stations, 6 or 8 gauge wire is commonly used.

I looked it up, This 40A Electric Vehicle Charger EV Car Charging Cable Cord 240V J1772 14-50 level 2 is $260 on E-Bay.



The woman is not working in a warehouse for a big box store and having a day off like I am.  20 bucks an hour is not going to justify spending thousands from a minimum wage job just to have hot coffee when the power goes out.

As a stoic a power outage is an opportunity to practice temperance.  Let the obstacle become the way.

The satisfaction of every idle whim by technology is not stoic.

I'll save my money and improve my character.

Quote"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way."

* The cable upon reflection, an EV owner would already have on the charger.  They would still need an inverter and the 'premium cable' probably costs more.  But this is splitting ----- copper wires.  I made my point.

The concept of having a big batt for the car and small batt for the house and of course at least 1 EV car, along with a hefty solar array plus a grid connection gives you better than average resilience, but quite obviously is outta da budget for 95% of the population even in a relatively "rich" country like the FSoA.  The whole system is predicated on the suburban model of living where everybody has their own house and car.  What about all the folks who live in apartments in cities and don't even own their own car?   Apartment buildings aren't suitable for solar, there's not enough surface area with sun exposure for the number of living units stacked vertically on the property.  They also don't usually have a parking garage right under the building you might wire all the car batts to the living units from.  In other words, this whole model is unsuitable for anyone who lives in Manhattan or downtown Seattle, even the rich folks there who might be able to afford it.

Moving outward to Brooklyn and Queens where you mostly have Brownstones and attached housing the people do generally own cars, but mostly use street parking so being able to connect home and car is probably not possible, at the least it is impractical.  The 1/8th to 1/4 acre plots these dwellings sit on barely would provide enough space for your pv array, ussuming you have good southern exposure.

Once you make it out to Long Island or NJ and start finding the McMansions on 1/2 acre properties with attached garages, the paradigm becomes possible, but these days said domiciles go for $500K & up, to which you are now adding another $100K probably for the EV car, home batt, inverters, pv array and assorted wiring.  What percentage of the population can afford this solution?

Moving rural, the land and home sizes are larger and come cheaper, but at the expense of fewer high paid jobs so affording the whole package is still limited, and the total population also much smaller.

Taken all together, while this option is possible for a small segment of the population, it's not a society wide solution.  Nevertheless, EV transportation and solar powered homes are still held out as the Holy Grail for the Green Amerikan, like 2 cars in every garage and a white picket fence were the grail of post-WWII subdivisions like Levittown.  The Amerikan Dream for everyone.  Everyone never got that one, and even fewer will get this one.

RE

QuoteThis whole model is unsuitable for anyone who lives in Manhattan or downtown Seattle, even the rich folks there who might be able to afford it.

QuoteEV transportation and solar powered homes are still held out as the Holy Grail for the Green Amerikan, like 2 cars in every garage and a white picket fence were the grail of post-WWII subdivisions like Levittown.  The Amerikan Dream for everyone.  Everyone never got that one, and even fewer will get this one.

Exactly right, but if your social position is comfortable enough you can practice the 'rising tide lifts all boats' logic of self-deception.  You can say fuck the boatless with a smile.

Being in a social position to be able to say such shit is a fantasy for most people.  In that fantasy Imagining such an attitude to be "OK" is a common delusion.  In fantasy anything goes. 

To that Buddy C sez: 
  Cut that shit out.

All valid points. I have no interest in the problems of urban population solar adoption. Their solutions should be transit and ride share services. Their power grid is very dense and pays for itself. My concerns and focus are on the aging rural grids that are prone to failure and don't have the density to be maintained properly. As to costs well the tech is new so it's pricey but so is hidden subsidies to grid power. Shrink the average house by 200 square feet and suddenly your solar costs are part of the house costs. Using the Ford lightning example they show a dedicated inverter charger setup with custom wiring and expensive accessories. All of that is useless fluff. Built into the Ford are high power inverters that can easily power critical loads in a house for days or slowly recharge a house based system. The much less expensive kia electrics have a plug in attachment for $200 that do the same thing. In rural areas if you have home based work you are spending most of your time at home. Most of the homes I see around me have at least one vehicle parked in the drive way most of the day. Experiences differ of course. I'm very interested in where all this goes. The world is changing I want to get an idea of how it's changing and hopefully not get crushed by it.
Cheers,
NF 

If you go with a mixed solution like micro-nukes for the cities and the solar/batt option for the rich suburbs and rural, you are closer to a plausible total solution.  You wouldn't need such a vast expansion of the high voltage transmission lines that would take so much copper and aluminum and faces so many regulatory hurdles and shortage of manpower to build it and maintain it.

In this solution, suburbia would be limited to the rich while poor folks live in the cities with electricity, or in rural areas mostly without it.  The filthy rich would have the luxury skyscrapers for their city home and an off grid solar and wind powered rural estate in the countryside.  Basically the same organization as Jolly Old England circa 1880 when the Earl had his Estate and his London Town home.  Poor folks lived in squalor in the city or shacks on the estate to mind  the Lord's pigs and sheep.  The Manor got wired up for electricity in the 1920s, but the poor folks didn't start getting wired until after WWII.

I of course am no big fan of Nuke Puke, micro or otherwise, but this solution is at least plausible.  Not sure how much or how many of these micro nukes you would need to pull it off or how much it would cost, but it doesn't stretch my credibility like expanding and upgrading the grid does.  I am also unsure of how much Uranium this would require and whether enough can be mined up and refined, or how long it would take to build all these nukes if you started today.  I suspect it's a decade at least, probably 2.  Also don't know if enough nuclear power plant engineers could be trained up to staff them all.   Finally, the radioactive waste problem still remains.

The micro nuke solution also faces the same MONEY problem a grid build out does, which is that it is fabulously expensive and financing it with loans from already insolvent banks handed out to already insolvent construction companies with no clear idea how this debt could ever be paid by an increasingly poor population of consumers is a fiduciary magic act that is beyond my pay grade.

Regardless what solution is pursued here, I don't think any will come online fast enough to transition to the EV transport fleet with zero carbon by 2035.  As an increasing number of EVs get produced, the increased load will lead to more grid failures, blackouts and brownouts, or they will start rationing electricity.  I took a WAG that it will take about 5 years for this to become apparent.  Always risky to make predictions of course.

RE

We are In full agreement that the 2035 goal is ridiculous. I do think you overestimate the cost of solar though. I installed a 2kw array 5kwhr storage 3 kw inverter for under 10000 dollars us. Heating is by wood, no ac, full fridge, water pump, all light and comms. The system can be expanded to 3kw of solar. A good third of that was electrical and regulation. You could go the guerrilla solar route but I don't do that. So in that scenario you shrink your prefab home by 100 square ft ($250/sq ftX 100 = $25000) the solar costs are covered and you never have an electrical bill..
There could be shortages in the winter time but a $300 generator can run for 2 hours a day to make up for any lack.
As for nukes; Ontario is proposing a new massive 4500 Mega watt plant. Cost wise it would be less expensive to give every household 30000 of solar and storage then to build the thing... but of course that is not on the table.

How long does it take your 2kw array to charge your EV, and how do you run your house while the car is chatging?

RE

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 11:11 AMHow long does it take your 2kw array to charge your EV, and how do you run your house while the car is chatging?

RE

as I'm sure you realize that is not a system for an electric car household.

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Jul 06, 2023, 01:57 PM

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 11:11 AMHow long does it take your 2kw array to charge your EV, and how do you run your house while the car is chatging?

RE

as I'm sure you realize that is not a system for an electric car household.

Understood.  The question is, how big an array do you need to BOTH power a house and charge an EV?  That is what is necessary for the model being promoted here of using EV Batts as part of the total power storage system for the grid and to convert the current fleet of ICE vehicles to EVs.  Every suburban house would need an EV also to maintain the suburban living model.

RE

A Chevy bolt will do 4 miles per lWHr... 1 kw of solar array will produce roughly 1200-1400 kWHrs per year...

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 02:31 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Jul 06, 2023, 01:57 PM

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 11:11 AMHow long does it take your 2kw array to charge your EV, and how do you run your house while the car is chatging?

RE

as I'm sure you realize that is not a system for an electric car household.

Understood.  The question is, how big an array do you need to BOTH power a house and charge an EV?  That is what is necessary for the model being promoted here of using EV Batts as part of the total power storage system for the grid and to convert the current fleet of ICE vehicles to EVs.  Every suburban house would need an EV also to maintain the suburban living model.

RE

OK, answering my own question.

According to Google charging a Tesla off a standard 120V home outlet takes 20-40 hours.  Let's split the difference and call it avg 30 hours.  A standard circuit is 20 amps for 2400 watts. How many hours/day do you get enough sunlight to generate 2400 watts?  On a good sunny day 5?  So call it 6 days to charge up with a 2.4 kw solar array, during which time said electricity is not available to run the house or charge the home batt.  Obviously you need a substantially larger solar PV array to handle this task.

To bring it within reason, you probably have to increase your array size by a factor of 10 to generate 24 kw. You'll need 10X the number of panels and  wiring and inverters capable of handling the load.  So if your basic 2400 kw array cost $10K, an array for the Tesla costs $100K, plus of course you still need the original array to power the house.

This setup charges the Tesla in 3 hours, reasonable as long as you are charging it during the hours the sun is shining.  If not, you would need a 2nd batt pack to charge while you are driving.

Since your array is so much larger, you need substantially more property on which to drop it, increasing the cost of your McMansion and your annual property taxes.

All in all, I would say $100K for the setup is an underestimate, and that's just to buy it.  It doesn't include the annual property tax bill, insurance or maintenance.

Then there is the cost of the Tesla itself, burrently around $30K for the cheapest ones I think.  More than 1 car needed, multiply those cost again for a still larger array, unless you can be charging one car while the other is driving.

Now of course as long as you don't completely drain the batt every day and only need to partially charge it, you can get away with a smaller setup.  Also, as long as there is a commercial charging station nearby you would not need to fully charge at home.  However, commercial charging stations would require a grid connection, which brings us back round to needing to upgrade the grid to carry higher loads out to the boonies.

Cloudy days also a problem.  lol.

RE

Not bad for a guess

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 07:54 PM

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 02:31 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Jul 06, 2023, 01:57 PM

Quote from: RE on Jul 06, 2023, 11:11 AMHow long does it take your 2kw array to charge your EV, and how do you run your house while the car is chatging?

RE

as I'm sure you realize that is not a system for an electric car household.

Understood.  The question is, how big an array do you need to BOTH power a house and charge an EV?  That is what is necessary for the model being promoted here of using EV Batts as part of the total power storage system for the grid and to convert the current fleet of ICE vehicles to EVs.  Every suburban house would need an EV also to maintain the suburban living model.

RE

OK, answering my own question.

According to Google charging a Tesla off a standard 120V home outlet takes 20-40 hours.  Let's split the difference and call it avg 30 hours.  A standard circuit is 20 amps for 2400 watts. How many hours/day do you get enough sunlight to generate 2400 watts?  On a good sunny day 5?  So call it 6 days to charge up with a 2.4 kw solar array, during which time said electricity is not available to run the house or charge the home batt.  Obviously you need a substantially larger solar PV array to handle this task.

To bring it within reason, you probably have to increase your array size by a factor of 10 to generate 24 kw. You'll need 10X the number of panels and  wiring and inverters capable of handling the load.  So if your basic 2400 kw array cost $10K, an array for the Tesla costs $100K, plus of course you still need the original array to power the house.

This setup charges the Tesla in 3 hours, reasonable as long as you are charging it during the hours the sun is shining.  If not, you would need a 2nd batt pack to charge while you are driving.

Since your array is so much larger, you need substantially more property on which to drop it, increasing the cost of your McMansion and your annual property taxes.

All in all, I would say $100K for the setup is an underestimate, and that's just to buy it.  It doesn't include the annual property tax bill, insurance or maintenance.

Then there is the cost of the Tesla itself, burrently around $30K for the cheapest ones I think.  More than 1 car needed, multiply those cost again for a still larger array, unless you can be charging one car while the other is driving.

Now of course as long as you don't completely drain the batt every day and only need to partially charge it, you can get away with a smaller setup.  Also, as long as there is a commercial charging station nearby you would not need to fully charge at home.  However, commercial charging stations would require a grid connection, which brings us back round to needing to upgrade the grid to carry higher loads out to the boonies.

Cloudy days also a problem.  lol.

RE

. Not bad for a guess but your numbers are way off. The level 1 charger on a Tesla is roughly 1200 watts or 4 to 5 miles per hour. You would not use a level one charger on solar with a large array you would use a level 2 at 30 amps at 240 volts for roughly 25 to 30 miles of charge per hour. If I was designing it I would do a 3kw array feeding to the grid for an electric car driving roughly 10000 miles a year. If the were off grid I would want to boost the array size to 5000 watts just for the car portion. I end up charging about 3 dollars Canadian per watt so roughly 15000 for the array required to run the car

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Jul 07, 2023, 01:44 PMNot bad for a guess but your numbers are way off. The level 1 charger on a Tesla is roughly 1200 watts or 4 to 5 miles per hour. You would not use a level one charger on solar with a large array you would use a level 2 at 30 amps at 240 volts for roughly 25 to 30 miles of charge per hour. If I was designing it I would do a 3kw array feeding to the grid for an electric car driving roughly 10000 miles a year. If the were off grid I would want to boost the array size to 5000 watts just for the car portion. I end up charging about 3 dollars Canadian per watt so roughly 15000 for the array required to run the car

Just had the numbers provided by Google,  I figured you would come back with a more accurate figure. 30A 240V is 7200W, how much do those inverters go for?  How much for the wiring from the array to the garage?  How much for the installation on roof and off roof on scaffolding?  How many sq feet does it take up?  How much for the grid tie in  and licensing?  How much to set it on motors to track the sun?

In any event, it is cheaper than my Google estimate, and for 25-30 mi/hr of charging, time is 2 5 hour days of charging for a 250-300 mi range.  Still need the sunny days, still can't use the car during the time of day you need to be charging it.

As I see it, EVs make great commuter cars as long as the workplace parking has plug-ins.  However, this then puts the charging load on the grid unless said workplace has an array big enough to charge all the employee Teslas simultaneously.  I wonder if even Tesla HQ has an array that big?

RE

Edit:  You're proposing 3kw  of power, not 7200w.  So the charging time is more than twice as long, about the 5 days I originally calculated.]

You start getting into units there; Watts versus Watt Hours. The level 2 charger is 7200 watts. The proposed grid connected array was 3000 watts. The numbers are not power just peak draw or production... So average per hour array production is roughly 3 hours per day so 9000 watt hours per day everyday,So roughly 30-50 miles per day of production. Grid connected that means it doesn't matter if you are there or not. That is why the off-grid array would be larger since you want more bang for your buck while the car is there. If you are driving more than 50 miles a day you need a lifestyle change.

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Jul 08, 2023, 10:33 AMIf you are driving more than 50 miles a day you need a lifestyle change.

Agreed 100% there.  All I am really trying to demonstrate is how unrealistic the fantasy model is that we can transition over to EVs and power them with renewables and maintain the suburban model of living.  It's not just the pricetag, it uses too much energy.  A typical New York commuter who lives on Long Island or in NJ drives 50 mile each way into Manhattan every day.  People who live around cities like Austin or Atlanta drive even further.

After that you have the kids being shipped back and forth to school, all the soccer moms playing chauffer  and UPS trucks driving to everybody's McMansion to drop off the latest online impulse buy from Amazon.

The techno solution crowd sell the idea we can keep all this going with zero emissions by 2035 if we just expand and upgrade the grid and drop solar pv arrays on every subdivision in Connecticut.  People believe this and will keep believing it right up till the brownouts hit every day and they start rotating blackouts to ration the juice.

Nothing short of a complete lifestyle change will suffice, but there's no housing model to replace the suburban dwellings.  Can't move all those people back to the city, they're already short of housing.  Can't move them out to the boonies, there isn't enough work out there.

Rock, meet Hard Place.

RE