Quote from: RE on Jun 04, 2026, 12:59 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 03, 2026, 02:37 PMFloor hands and booze I get, smoking, sure, but the big type drugs among those generally considered intelligent?

This sentence implies you think people who do "big time" drugs are generally stupid.

"Stupid" isn't the right pejorative. Part of my off-kilter perspective with folks doing drugs is I don't understand it. The need for whatever it is to NOT be coherent strikes me as...alien.

Quote from: REI presume BT Drugs besides Coke include Opiates and Amphetamines, not sure if you include Hallucinogenics and Barbituates, Valium, Qualudes etc.

If they are needed for getting over surgeries and stuff I understand them. I had a root canal once that required some strong sold on the street for big bucks type drug. Can't say how I felt on it was anything special.

Quote from: REHowever, regardless of which classes of drugs you perceive to be BT, whether you do them or not has little to do with how smart or stupid you are.

Good thing I never said anything like that then.

Quote from: REAll drugs you take recreationaly carry the risk of at least a psychological dependency developing, even if they are not physically addicting, but in general the number of people who become dependent on any recreational drug is much smaller than the number who use them  without it significantly affecting their lives.

I can believe that. Doesn't mean I understand their use however.

Quote from: REAlcohol for instance, far more people drink socially than there are alcoholics.  Most of the traders at Drexel who sniffed coke were within reasonable bounds, though a few  lost control and ended up in rehab.  Much fewer than the number doing coke though, maybe 1 in 20 as a WAG.

Yeah, I don't drink either. I leave that to the folks or like it or need it or whatever.

Quote from: REAnyhow, smart people like drugs pretty much the same way and for the same reasons stupid people do.\
RE

Seems reasonable....not knowing what those reasons are or caring at all. But interestingly, during my time on this globe, I've never had serious problems with sober folks other than maybe a car accident or something. Boozed up or drunk ones? All sorts of trouble, trips to court, firearms being discharged, lawsuits, and so on and forth.

Another one of those weird correlations perhaps, like you never having insurance and getting away with it, and me always having it and occasionally needing it...in some cases because of those stoned, whacked or drunk smart non-smart people.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 04, 2026, 03:35 PMI can believe that. Doesn't mean I understand their use however.

Well, at least part of the reason you can't understand it is because you never tried them.  How would you know if you liked Kidneys if you never tried them?  Even better, how would you know if you liked sex if you never tried it?

As a child, most kids when they see a couple of adults French Kissing are grossed out. "Eeeewwww!"  it seems alien and disgusting.  Later when they mature and get some sexual feelings and try masturbating, they start to understand and it's not so gross anymore.  Drugs are very much the same in terms of the feelings they engender, which is where the phrase "Sex, Drugs & Rock & Roll" comes from.  Generally speaking, if you like Sex & Rock music, you'll like drugs.  Perhaps you don't like sex and/or rock, so drugs have no appeal for you.

Anyhow, whatever the reason is, your inability to understand it probably goes back to childhood and you were grossed out by seeing people doing drugs or getting drunk and you couldn't understand it.  You never got over that initial impression, never tried it and so it hardened into your current opinion, which is rather childish.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 04, 2026, 05:09 PM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 04, 2026, 03:35 PMI can believe that. Doesn't mean I understand their use however.

Well, at least part of the reason you can't understand it is because you never tried them.

I got some good stuff for the dentistry thing. They helped with pain certainty. But my experience with users is hardly convincing of how great a deal it is. Starting with pops and booze.

Quote from: REHow would you know if you liked Kidneys if you never tried them?  Even better, how would you know if you liked sex if you never tried it?

Good thing I tried a little narcotics. Did good for pain. Made me woozy.

Quote from: REGenerally speaking, if you like Sex & Rock music, you'll like drugs.  Perhaps you don't like sex and/or rock, so drugs have no appeal for you.

Painting with a broad brush, while amusing, doesn't work on me. I am quite thrilled with sex and rock music, although nowadays I mix in everything from classical to country, the newer stuff doesn't do much for me though.

Quote from: REAnyhow, whatever the reason is, your inability to understand it probably goes back to childhood and you were grossed out by seeing people doing drugs or getting drunk and you couldn't understand it.

Methinks you project too much from the perspective of a city kid. Never saw anyone doing drugs, just pops and booze. Occasional moonshine in the holler. 

Quote from: REYou never got over that initial impression, never tried it and so it hardened into your current opinion, which is rather childish.

RE

Oh...I've seen your speculating on all sorts of topics, and how amusingly your use of IQ for actual experience works out sometimes. I loved your La Longue Carabine tales on peakoil.com, from experience gained while at summer camp.

I'll stick with a scientists perspective, thanks.  

I have no idea what "pops" are, but I'll guess they are some variant of opiate.  Far as what Dentists give you for pain, it's usually oxycodone and the dosages they give you aren't enough to get you high.  Usually 5mg.  I take 10mg oxy 3 times a day, I don't get "woozy" at all and it barely scratches the pain.  Currently I'm backing off it because my tolerance is so high and the only way I could bring down the pain is by probably tripling the dose, which the pain doctor would be unwilling to do.  Using opiates for pain management is entirely different from using them to get high.  You need much larger doses and you need to either smoke it (opium) or take it intravenously.

Far as getting woozy goes, that's an effect of low doses of opiates taken orally, not unlike the effect of alcohol.  Totally different than the effects of Cocaine, which sharpens your senses rather than dulling them.  Way, way different than hallucinogens, which make you experience things more vividly as well as experience what is going on inside your own unconscious mind, which normally you can't experience.

Not sure how a scientists perspective on drugs is any different than anyone else's, since many scientists use them, probably in similar numbers to the rest of the population.  I know many doctors do.  Why do they do them?  Because they tried them and they enjoyed the experience.  Opiates might not be your cup of tea, I don't like them either besides for the pain management aspect.  Cocaine though is very enjoyable for me and many others who can afford it.  I'm sure Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos sniff plenty. lol.  Certainly popular on Wall St and the City of London.  Hallucinogens also a blast, and much cheaper.  Anyhow, as a scientist, you have no point of reference on them without trying them.  You can't understand it by observing other people taking them, any more than you can understand why another person likes the smell of a particular perfume you don't like.  The sensory experience is specific to the individual, you can't know another person's experience, only your own.  Until you try it, it's a complete black box.

RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 05, 2026, 09:05 AMFar as what Dentists give you for pain, it's usually oxycodone and the dosages they give you aren't enough to get you high.  Usually 5mg.  I take 10mg oxy 3 times a day, I don't get "woozy" at all and it barely scratches the pain.

You are in a situation where drugs, and the quantities of them are certainly useful. Never said they wwren't useful in the right situations, only that I don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Quote from: REWay, way different than hallucinogens, which make you experience things more vividly as well as experience what is going on inside your own unconscious mind, which normally you can't experience.

So some folks take drugs to hallucinate in ways that just being a normal alkie or junkie can't experience? I know exactly how to experience things vividly without drugs, but it usually involves racetracks, or adrenaline in some way. Always find the time dilation feeling to be really interesting. 

Quote from: RE

Quote from: RENot sure how a scientists perspective on drugs is any different than anyone else's, since many scientists use them, probably in similar numbers to the rest of the population.

Could be. After a career with them I've never seen it, but it is possible.

Quote from: REUntil you try it, it's a complete black box.
RE

I agree that those lacking experience with a thing, a feeling, a drug, a topic, can't say they have experienced it or maybe even understand it. Its exactly why PhD's can't get peak oil right, or Joe Average thinks they can do an appendectomy in a pinch, or experience on a rifle range as a child qualifies someone as a sniper in survival situations decades later.

Still, some folks think that they understand a topic or skill with no experience.

I will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass. 

Some people don't care if they are hated.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2026, 05:09 PMI don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Cocaine doesn't make you incoherent, in fact it increases clarity and your speed of thinking. Dr. Williiam Halstead who revolutionized surgery was a coke addict, Steve Jobs said LSD was "one of the two or three most important things I have done in life.", Freud considered cocaine a "wonder drug", and Thomas Edison was addicted to Vin Mariani, a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves.  As I said before, your perception of all drugs as having the same neurological effects as alcohol is completely wrong.

QuoteSo some folks take drugs to hallucinate in ways that just being a normal alkie or junkie can't experience?

Yes. See the above.

QuoteI will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass.

Far as LSD goes for you, that's probably a good idea.  Looking into your unconscious mind would likely lead you to a very bad trip.  You might discover what a complete asshole you are.


RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2026, 12:01 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 05, 2026, 05:09 PMI don't understand the need/desire to take them leading to incoherence.

Cocaine doesn't make you incoherent, in fact it increases clarity and your speed of thinking.

I'll take your word for it. And that a highly addictive drug has that capability as well.

Quote from: REDr. Williiam Halstead who revolutionized surgery was a coke addict, Steve Jobs said LSD was "one of the two or three most important things I have done in life.", Freud considered cocaine a "wonder drug", and Thomas Edison was addicted to Vin Mariani, a Bordeaux wine treated with coca leaves.  As I said before, your perception of all drugs as having the same neurological effects as alcohol is completely wrong.

Well, with all these famous enthusiasts what could be wrong with it? I wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it? How enlightened they felt, and wonderful, prior to...you know....dying from it.

I will grant that those who enjoy doing addictive and occasionally outright lethal drugs might..indeed...enjoy them. For some strange reason, maybe because we were lacking folks like your famous examples in the holler, they all just seemed to be stoned halfwits, dropouts and generally undesireable. Maybe there is a difference between backwoods dopers and the high and mighty kind that live in the cities?

Quote from: RE

QuoteI will take your word and experience on how drugs can be great. I'll pass.

Far as LSD goes for you, that's probably a good idea.

Far as ANY of them go, it is probably a good idea. Dad was a mean drunk, and as far as enlightenment through drugs, I've been quite happy with mountaintops, racetracks, and the occasional grand western vista.

Quote from: RELooking into your unconscious mind would likely lead you to a very bad trip.  You might discover what a complete asshole you are.
RE

That is a possibility. Or it might reveal the attitudes and capabilities that landed Joe Nobody from the holler where I am in life. Perhaps an asshole, as are you I would venture, but also someone who has arrived where I am today. As opposed to where some "enlightened" others have arrived. Not you of course, but those dead bodies left behind after folks are overly "enlightened" through the injestion of various chemical compounds.  To each their own is my motto.

Or you could take a trip on 50x Salvia and after you look down on the lizard skin covering your hand you can have a conversation with god.  No fooling him.  No way.  You might feel the life of insects even through the walls of the house.  Little sparks of life everywhere around you.  You can feel the presence of the demon in the lake who has no power over you.  And you can do all that in 15 minutes.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 06, 2026, 06:40 AMI wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it?

6000 people/year die in motorcycle crashes too.  At least with coke, it's only your own stupidity that causes the death.  On a bike, you risk other people's stupidity causing it.  In any event, all worthwhile things carry some risk.

Far as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Anyhow, as I said earlier, your attitude stems from childhood.  It's clearly a reaction to having an alcoholic father.  You never got over that.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 06, 2026, 11:38 AMOr you could take a trip on 50x Salvia and after you look down on the lizard skin covering your hand you can have a conversation with god.  No fooling him.  No way.  You might feel the life of insects even through the walls of the house.  Little sparks of life everywhere around you.  You can feel the presence of the demon in the lake who has no power over you.  And you can do all that in 15 minutes.

Is a drug induced hallucination of having a conversation with God...real? But I understand drugs helping someone to believe it might be. In 15 minutes at Laguna Seca I can do maybe 14.2 laps and see God, watch my life flash before my eyes half a dozen times, feel every bump in the asphalt in turn 6 on my left knee, launch my stomache into my throat entering the Corkscrew, and not give a crap about insects or the walls of my house. No demons involved in this high at all.....just a pure celebration of life in an all natural way. Maybe folks take drugs to see God because doing it my way requires, you know, DOING something other than popping a pill?

Quote from: RE on Jun 06, 2026, 11:52 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 06, 2026, 06:40 AMI wonder what the 20-30k people a year who die from this wonderful substance think about it?

6000 people/year die in motorcycle crashes too.

Indeed. And car crashes. And falling down stairs. Drowning. Robbery gone bad. Pulling a gun on the wrong person (seen this one before). The causes of death are indeed legion. But none of these are voluntary acts(well, pulling a gun on someone might be). Taking drugs to get high and dying is a choice. Robbers don't plan on dying in the act of robbing...but it happens. The suicidal might drive a car knowing they plan on using it to kill themselves, but normal folk don't. The suicidal might swim knowing they can't...and drown. Pulling a gun on the wrong person is a voluntary act....that can turn out poorly depending on who you are pulling on.

Come on RE, you aren't required to demonstrate that statistics can lie, and liars use statistics in front of someone who can spot either or both a mile away.

Quote from: REAt least with coke, it's only your own stupidity that causes the death.

If by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Quote from: REOn a bike, you risk other people's stupidity causing it.

That is called life. Be it an idiot cager killing you, or getting hit by space junk falling from the sky. In neither case is it you deciding that "Hey! Lets do some cool drugs today and hope I don't overdose, or my dealer didn't substitute in a little too much drain cleaner to the mix". It isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Quote from: REIn any event, all worthwhile things carry some risk.

LIFE carrys risk, and is indeed worthwhile. And then there are all things we do in life that raise or lower our chances of making it to the average or median age before croaking more naturally.

Hunter Thompson and reaching the finish line....best quote ever. He got it. Drugs, motorcycles, parachuting without a parachute, whatever. We all choose our brand of risk, but I think Hunter had the idea right.

So I let the drug users use drugs. And I hope that I don't low side in Turn 6 at Laguna and slide off the cliff awaiting on the outside of the corner.

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Outstanding! I imagine that is why it is legal in all 50 states. Oops...wait....for some strange reason....it isn't. You make it sound so safe....I wonder why it isn't legal? All those straight laced folks just being a drag on a happy go lucky drug culture types?

Quote from: REAnyhow, as I said earlier, your attitude stems from childhood.  It's clearly a reaction to having an alcoholic father.  You never got over that.
RE

Thank you for that Mr Dr of Psychology RE. I remember when you tried to play geologist once, it was a riot. At least now with AI you could probably do better I bet. I might agree with your amateur shrink routine though, but only because I do analytics for a living, and logically, it seems reasonable that some of my life choices and current behavior stem from childhood events. I imagine a Shrink AI would say the same thing. 

But I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper. So it isnt' apropos anyway, unless I just wanted to be some alky in the bag all the time. Which obviously I didn't.

So while maybe I can agree that a little of some part of each of us probably can be traced back that far, it doesn't necessary express itself as much as some might think. But a little...somewhere...somehow..maybe. 

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 08, 2026, 05:34 PMIf by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Stupid is not knowing what dosage has potential to kill you.  Cocaine doesn't corrupt your ability to know that.  Heroin might, but if it made you that stupid, you already took too much, so you were stupid before you loaded the syringe.  In any event, Heroin is not on the list of drugs I find worthwhile.

QuoteIt isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Ever listen to the list of potential side effects of FDA approved drugs?  Not even taken at overdose levels, DEATH is often on the list.

QuoteHunter Thompson and reaching the finish line....best quote ever. He got it. Drugs, motorcycles, parachuting without a parachute, whatever. We all choose our brand of risk, but I think Hunter had the idea right.

QuoteBut I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper.

Alcohol is a drug and it is physically addictive.  It's just a more commonly used form of "dope" that's legal.  Nothing wrong with you decision not to use drugs, but your attitude is reflected in your writing about the reasons why.  Your use of pejoratives like "doper" and "alky" demonstrates disrespect toward those who do choose to use them.

Quote from: TDoS

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.

Outstanding! I imagine that is why it is legal in all 50 states. Oops...wait....for some strange reason....it isn't. You make it sound so safe....I wonder why it isn't legal? All those straight laced folks just being a drag on a happy go lucky drug culture types?

Actually, it's currently being tested  for use in relieving symptoms of depression.



RE

Quote from: RE on Jun 09, 2026, 12:38 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 08, 2026, 05:34 PMIf by "stupidity" you mean "stupid enough to do dangerous drugs that might have corrupted you ability to know when to stop" then I agree with you.

Stupid is not knowing what dosage has potential to kill you.

Or not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Quote from: K-Dog

QuoteIt isn't as though hard illegal drugs are FDA approved now, is it?

Ever listen to the list of potential side effects of FDA approved drugs?  Not even taken at overdose levels, DEATH is often on the list.

I am familiar with over the counter med consequences. And I do listen to the potential side effects, as do my doctors. They moved my medication for high blood pressure around just 6 months ago, watching out for potential side effects related to my kidneys.

How many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

Quote from: RE

QuoteBut I don't consider choosing to avoid illegal drugs to be an attitude. It is a decision. And dad did booze, he wasn't a doper.

Alcohol is a drug and it is physically addictive.

Indeed. Such is the way of drugs.  Good thing I have a medical professional keeping an eye on mine!

Quote from: REBut your attitude is reflected in your writing about the reasons why.  Your use of pejoratives like "doper" and "alky" demonstrates disrespect toward those who do choose to use them.

Indeed it does. Very observant. Just as I use the pejorative "cager" for those who are. And "Happy McPeaksters" for those who don't know geology.

You've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

Quote from: REFar as LSD goes, virtually nobody dies and it's non-addictive.
[and] Actually, it's currently being tested  for use in relieving symptoms of depression.

Outstanding! And with experience and degrees in and around geology and engineering, practical experience using both, a professional understanding of statistics and probabalistic modeling, peak oilers would never have been misled by various internet experts and PhDs. Give me some more time, maybe I could figure out LSD as well.

But until it is figured out...it isn't figured out. Like peak oil.

Quote from: TDoS on Jun 09, 2026, 05:34 AMOr not caring because as an addict you are already in stupid land.

Exactly!  Thus drugs perform an important social function.  The overdosers win a Darwin Award. 😀

QuoteHow many happy consumers of illegal drugs have a doctor making sure they don't go overboard, mixing and matching their favorite hallucinagins?

You really need a doctor for this?  Doctors just follow political guidelines with Schedule A illegal drugs.  If you wanna understand the interactions, you need to know the biochemistry of how the drug works.

QuoteIndeed. Such is the way of drugs.  Good thing I have a medical professional keeping an eye on mine!

See the above.  Doctors just tell you taking illegal drugs are bad for you.  Then they go home and take them themselves. lol.

QuoteYou've got an ego the size of the Moon, do you really want to pretend that I am the only one here who looks down in one way or another on the normies?

I look down on Stupid People, not Drug Users.  The two sets are not identical.

QuoteBut until it is figured out...it isn't figured out. Like peak oil.

You have been warned before about dragging Peak Oil into unrelated discussions.  I gave you a pass on this post, next time I will trash it.

RE