I started planning to go off grid in the late/mid nineties. I was able to cut the natural gas off before 2000. Solar took longer, it was once unbelievably expensive. I bought my first panels in 2000, used at the time, for a price that will cause a fit of uncontrolled swearing if I speak of it. That first array was just one kw. I had to build a motorized frame just so I could aim it to the sun. 1kw is not a lot of power but we get a lot of sun in Alberta so I was living large right up to mid sept but then the shorter darker days of winter came and did not leave until mid/late march. The generator had to run, or contribute some power most every day in the oct to March period of winter. Power use was tight in the winter months. A few years later I added a few more used (12 volt) panels, bringing me up to 1800 watts. I was getting by but winter production still sucked. Then, I can't remember the year for sure, I think it was 2011-2012 and new Panel prices dropped to 58 cents a watt, and that was for top of the line Canadian production panels. Canadian Solar 225 watt panels. I bought 4 pallets, 5000 watts per pallet. I kept 8000 watts for myself, and resold the rest for nearly double what I had paid. So I made out ok on the deal. Now I had serious power production. Winter generator run time now can start up early DEC but ends roughly Jan 20th. So roughly 6-7 weeks when the generator runs, some time a little sometimes A lot. Over all that's not bad though it will get even better when I clear some trees. The next big change was Lifepo4 prices falling to working man price levels. About 4 years ago I made the switch, 280amphr  12 volt batteries all in parallel giving me 20kwhrs of storage. My usage is roughly 6kwhrs a day, so I have plenty. So cheap solar panels were the first big game changer, then second, these new Lifepo4 batteries. I have not had to change my system voltage, I am still at 12 volts, I find it still works fine for me.

By that description

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 09, 2023, 09:50 PMI started planning to go off grid in the late/mid nineties. I was able to cut the natural gas off before 2000. Solar took longer, it was once unbelievably expensive. I bought my first panels in 2000, used at the time, for a price that will cause a fit of uncontrolled swearing if I speak of it. That first array was just one kw. I had to build a motorized frame just so I could aim it to the sun. 1kw is not a lot of power but we get a lot of sun in Alberta so I was living large right up to mid sept but then the shorter darker days of winter came and did not leave until mid/late march. The generator had to run, or contribute some power most every day in the oct to March period of winter. Power use was tight in the winter months. A few years later I added a few more used (12 volt) panels, bringing me up to 1800 watts. I was getting by but winter production still sucked. Then, I can't remember the year for sure, I think it was 2011-2012 and new Panel prices dropped to 58 cents a watt, and that was for top of the line Canadian production panels. Canadian Solar 225 watt panels. I bought 4 pallets, 5000 watts per pallet. I kept 8000 watts for myself, and resold the rest for nearly double what I had paid. So I made out ok on the deal. Now I had serious power production. Winter generator run time now can start up early DEC but ends roughly Jan 20th. So roughly 6-7 weeks when the generator runs, some time a little sometimes A lot. Over all that's not bad though it will get even better when I clear some trees. The next big change was Lifepo4 prices falling to working man price levels. About 4 years ago I made the switch, 280amphr  12 volt batteries all in parallel giving me 20kwhrs of storage. My usage is roughly 6kwhrs a day, so I have plenty. So cheap solar panels were the first big game changer, then second, these new Lifepo4 batteries. I have not had to change my system voltage, I am still at 12 volts, I find it still works fine for me.

would it be correct from your description that you are running 8000 watts of solar into a 12 volt system?

Very close to correct. As I stated I kept 8000 watts. I don't have the full 8000 watts up, I currently have exactly 25 225 watt (30 volt) panels up, so thats 5600 watts + 1000 watts from my first array so that gives me 6600 watts of panels, and I have 2000 watts sitting extra in a shipping container.
 Now Just because I have 6600 watts up does not mean I get that power coming in. The devil is in the details, let me explain. That power coming in is divided over 6 different charge controllers. The first array is easy to explain, 12 12 volt BP 75 watt panels feeding a xantrex C-60 controller so there is 1000 watts.
Now it may get hard to follow, Four of those 225 watt panels are hooked in series giving me 120 volt DC buss (maybe 118.xx to be exact at mpp)These 4 panels are hooked in parallel with another 4 panels hooked in series  as the first were. So that is 1800 watts of panels that are fed to a Midnight Classic 200 and if you check on the specs of the midnight classic I have that controller input nearly 100% overloaded.
That is ok though it only means the max I can get out of it is 79 amps at 12.8 volts or 1000 watts. I am ok with that because I only power up this expensive MPPT controller in the winter when I want to pound the amps in during short daylight hours...Have to stop, chores calling will continue with a part 2 later (I type with one finger this takes me forever to type)

Continuing, Part 2. Have to correct myself already, 5 controllers not 6. Anyway, yes I am wasting power (800 watts)on the input to the Midnight Classic but I have available a high amp DC Buss (16 amps at 120vdc) for other uses, think resistive, universal motors and such, a different topic. Next up is a EPever MPPT it is a small one, only 40 amps output, again only enabled in winter. Now this one is fed by 5 225 watt 30 volt panels all in parallel, this overloading of the input is entirely wasteful, 1100 watts in and I can only get (40x12. 500 out. I am going to replace this 40 amp mppt in the future with at least a 60 but it is what it is for now. That explains 3 controllers, the last 2 controllers are Morningstar C60, PWM controllers, fantastically built controllers, The rest of the panels are divided between these 2 controllers and they like the xantrex controller run all year. Again these PWM controllers are being used wastefully, fed 30 volts to charge 12 I know what you are thinking, how much power I am not utilizing, but understand those PWM controllers were less than half the cost of something like the Midnight Classic and much more durable. My system developed over time and with funds available not how I would build from scratch, but it all works fine for me. I ballpark my actual available power potential at roughly 3500 watts from the panels or 250-270ish amps DC. My system will improve as over time I will switch out my PWMs for good quality MPPT for use in the winter.

I've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 12, 2023, 10:19 AMI've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PMYes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

It's always difficult to make a change to a superior technology when you have invested a whole lot of money in an older tech and the hardware still works.  Think of all the big companies that had tons invested in IBM Mainframe technology when the Desktop computers hit the scene.  They were much slower at changing over their systems than newer and/or smaller ones that had never invested so much.  Besides the hardware, all the software they had custom written for their own systems also became obsolete as newer better software was developed for desktops and mass marketed, coming in at a fraction of the price of their custom packages, which also had to be individually maintained and upgraded.  Eventually of course they did switchover except for a few applications better suited to mainframe supercomputers.Another current example is trying to build all new Charging Stations for EV carz when there are tons of already built and still functional gas pumps which are going obsolete.

Is it worth the money to make the changeover from 12V to 24V?  You have to do a Cost-Benefit analysis.  For your own application, how much added efficiency do you really need now?  How much will switching benefit you in the future?  I would say as long as 12V does the job you need done and you can still maintain it in the future, it doesn't make economic sense to switch.  This is an individual decision for everyone, there's no single answer.

RE

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 12, 2023, 10:19 AMI've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

so the first thing I would say is is the turbine worth it? Most of them don't produce squat. I would suggest you try to log it because what usually happens with those small turbines is their controllers can only do bulk charging as they are usually a pwm married to a dump controller set to a specific voltage. The problem with that is when put up against a large solar array on an mppt charger their target voltage is immediately met by the solar and they default to dump load. Next would be they do not charge lithium well as they needed the lead acid to regulate their voltage or again default to dump. If I was you and you have your heart set on keeping a wind element I would do it differently. 1) find a small so so 12 volt lead acid pack that the wind turbine charges exclusively. 2) hook on one of you C60 pwm and set it up as a load controller (they do that) feed the output of the 12 volt separate battery to a voltage converter and charge the lithium battery bank with it at its perfect voltage. It works, I've seen it done on a micro hydro with the same problems 12 volt turbine, to charge a 24 volt lithium... when you switch to 24 volts all those competing charge controllers will not fight each other so much so you can leave your arrays plugged in year round. You then dump load like crazy for hot water, ac, grow lights whatever and boost your virtual battery bank that way. Cut down your Genny time...
Some random musings.
Cheers,  NF

Quote from: RE on Sep 13, 2023, 12:25 AM

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PMYes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

It's always difficult to make a change to a superior technology when you have invested a whole lot of money in an older tech and the hardware still works.  Think of all the big companies that had tons invested in IBM Mainframe technology when the Desktop computers hit the scene.  They were much slower at changing over their systems than newer and/or smaller ones that had never invested so much.  Besides the hardware, all the software they had custom written for their own systems also became obsolete as newer better software was developed for desktops and mass marketed, coming in at a fraction of the price of their custom packages, which also had to be individually maintained and upgraded.  Eventually of course they did switchover except for a few applications better suited to mainframe supercomputers.Another current example is trying to build all new Charging Stations for EV carz when there are tons of already built and still functional gas pumps which are going obsolete.

Is it worth the money to make the changeover from 12V to 24V?  You have to do a Cost-Benefit analysis.  For your own application, how much added efficiency do you really need now?  How much will switching benefit you in the future?  I would say as long as 12V does the job you need done and you can still maintain it in the future, it doesn't make economic sense to switch.  This is an individual decision for everyone, there's no single answer.

RE

it is a hard decision one I again have to make. I currently have a 24 volt system and am debating upgrading to 48 volts. I'm taking down the existing and reinstalling and the breaker and cabling costs will be high to do a legal system. So do I install everything I already have for charge controllers or up the voltage and install half as many at 48 volts... There is a cost to trade in and upgrade my inverter but probably less than the costs of twice as many breakers and cables and time...

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 13, 2023, 08:08 AM

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 12, 2023, 08:08 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 12, 2023, 10:19 AMI've come across a great deal of these systems that get built up over time. I would for sure say it's time to change out the inverter to at least a 24 volt unit. Your cabling and breaker costs alone would make it worth while. 24 volts would take care of most of your issues even allow you to keep your prized C60PWM ( also my first controller) controllers in play. The PWMs are fine on the 230 watt panels though not great for lithium as they relied on the lead acid battery to regulate voltage.  Your lithium can get thermal run away if you push too much voltage at it. Having said that the under load voltage of the 230 watt panels works well for the bulk settings of most 24 volt controllers. I have a contact in London Ontario area that rebuilds and trades in used inverters. I recently traded in a vintage Trace DR 12 volt unit a client had kicking around and they used it towards a 24 volt magnum MS (also a great inverter). 24 volts allows you to do easier dump loading which on a system your size would help a lot. As soon as the arrays went above 1200 watts the higher voltage inverters became the norm. Not so much for the inverting as for the charge controller, cabling and disconnect costs. I still do some 12 volt but mostly in the mobile or cabin realms.
Cheers, NF

Yes, I have been thinking of making the jump to 24 volt. So many issues though, I have and I kid you not at least 6 great inverters I have picked up dirt cheap over the years, I have heavy duty 12 volt chargers, multiple. I would have to wind a new stator for the wind turbine. It is hard to make changes when things are mostly working fine but I suspect the jump to 24volts may be in the future or I am thinking about having both a 12 volt and 24 volt and just switch between them as needed. I don't know what I am going to do.

so the first thing I would say is is the turbine worth it? Most of them don't produce squat. I would suggest you try to log it because what usually happens with those small turbines is their controllers can only do bulk charging as they are usually a pwm married to a dump controller set to a specific voltage. The problem with that is when put up against a large solar array on an mppt charger their target voltage is immediately met by the solar and they default to dump load. Next would be they do not charge lithium well as they needed the lead acid to regulate their voltage or again default to dump. If I was you and you have your heart set on keeping a wind element I would do it differently. 1) find a small so so 12 volt lead acid pack that the wind turbine charges exclusively. 2) hook on one of you C60 pwm and set it up as a load controller (they do that) feed the output of the 12 volt separate battery to a voltage converter and charge the lithium battery bank with it at its perfect voltage. It works, I've seen it done on a micro hydro with the same problems 12 volt turbine, to charge a 24 volt lithium... when you switch to 24 volts all those competing charge controllers will not fight each other so much so you can leave your arrays plugged in year round. You then dump load like crazy for hot water, ac, grow lights whatever and boost your virtual battery bank that way. Cut down your Genny time...
Some random musings.
Cheers,  NF

In regards to your first question, Hell no, not worth it from a economic sense. I would never advise anyone to get one, Solar is pretty much a home run hit by itself without a wind turbine being needed. Now having said that there are some people (ME) who enjoy the technical aspect of putting a wind turbine and supporting system together. My cost are already sunk on this, sunk roughly 15/16 years ago (before NEO prices went stupid) Not Just Sunk on the one up and flying but on the parts for a second much larger one, half way built.
 I have logged the data on it for the last 3 years in Winter, It is only allowed to spool up in winter, Nov, Dec, Jan. Over the last 3 winters, from memory 900 watt hrs a day average one winter, 1.2kwh a day another winter, and 1.1kwh another winter, with the highest produced power in one day was 5.5 kwhrs.
 That unit is running atop a 62 foot tall tip up tower. This unit is built to the specs of Otherpowers 10 foot diameter dual rotor, with a slight change in blade design. While I do have a good working charge controller I built for it, I found it unneeded, so I am running commando Its not been a problem. If the batteries are full up I just short the 3 phase and leave it off for a day.

Been thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 26, 2023, 05:42 PMBeen thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 27, 2023, 12:30 PM

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 26, 2023, 05:42 PMBeen thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

I am currently running a used TRIPP LITE PV2000FC 2000W, cost me all of 50 bucks of kijiji. Split phase is what most the inverters I see on line advertise them as, if they output 120/240

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 27, 2023, 07:36 PM

Quote from: Nearings Fault on Sep 27, 2023, 12:30 PM

Quote from: 18hammers on Sep 26, 2023, 05:42 PMBeen thinking more about the jump to 24 volts. Decided to do it, next year sometime. Been running single phase, mod sine,  just fine all these years but now thinking I may as well go spit phase and sine, in for a penny, in for a pound as they say. 

Do you mean single phase 110/240? Split phase is pretty uncommon. What inverter are you currently running?

I am currently running a used TRIPP LITE PV2000FC 2000W, cost me all of 50 bucks of kijiji. Split phase is what most the inverters I see on line advertise them as, if they output 120/240

ok, we are talking about the same thing then. You don't see many tripp lites around. If you want the same kind of durability the magnum PAE is probably your best bet. It uses the iron core copper wrapped transformer common in low frequency inverters. It's nice because it does not have a heavy standby draw and is a well established unit, comes in 24 and 48 volts models. The newer high frequency units have done away with the core but their standby draw is higher. Their surge capacity is also not as good. In that realm would be the Sol Ark at the high end and the SRNA and growatt at the lower end. They are nice in that they incorporate the high voltage charge controllers but anything goes wrong with them and they are a brick... I just designed a system with a growatt in it. For the cost you can have a second one waiting on the shelf in case of problems. The growatt is not split phase but SRNA has one. And auto transformer is also an option.

The shorter days of winter are here now, snow in the forecast for Monday, overnight lows going into double digit negatives. Glad I have a diesel air heater for backup heat, because of my injury there is no way I can carry firewood to the house. This is the time of year I change the settings on my charge controllers. Through the spring summer and fall I only let the batteries rise to 13.4/13.5. Now I want to store every bit I can so I bump the controllers up to 14.