To deny collapse means denying human agency.  It is a slave mentality to think you have no control over events to come.  The totally brainwashed think everything happens according to gods will.  In such a mindset there is no collapse.  All is as it should be. 

But collapse that humans cannot control, random acts of god, have never been an interest of the Diner.  Adults know acts of god are real enough.  You do not even have to believe in a god like the brainwashed do to know that, so move on. 

Collapse in the Diner is always intimately connected to human stupidity.  Collapse which could have, and should have, and would have been avoided if adults were in charge is the only collapse that is interesting.  Acts of god are boring random and tragic.  But if they could have been avoided by human action, then the same acts become interesting.  Human drama makes it so. 

Things won't get interesting enough for TDOS until there is mass death.  But that is like only reading the end of a story.

Quote from: K-Dog on Aug 15, 2026, 04:33 PMThings won't get interesting enough for TDOS until there is mass death.  But that is like only reading the end of a story.

Indeed.TDoS sets the bar for what he accepts as evidence for collapse so high that when it's reached supply chains will have failed completely, shelves will be bare everywhere, nobody will have reliable electricity, gas pumps will be dry and the only thing Dollars useful for is wiping your ass.

While this level of collapse has reached countries like Cuba and Somalia, it's still a ways off in the FSoA, though Europe seems to be getting there pretty quickly.  Thing is, by the time it does make it here, the process of getting there will be over, it will be history not futurism.  Everyone will acknowledge the reality then.  For those of us who analyze collapse, we'll move on from reporting on collapse in progress to predicting how society will reformulate.  Except of course there won't be any internet and most of us will be dead anyhow.

Anyhow, by the time there's evidence enough for TDoS of Collapse, the show will basically be over.  My interest is in how we get to that point, and what transpires along the way down.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Aug 15, 2026, 04:33 PMTo deny collapse means denying human agency.

To deny collapse when it doesn't meet the definition is normal, expected, and called for.

You can no more call it something else and be taken seriously than if you multiply volts times amps and get Pi.

Quote from: K-DogCollapse in the Diner is always intimately connected to human stupidity.

The Diner, and people in general, can make up its own definition, obviously. Just like I can say that Pi=2.
Applying relative definitions to things though makes stuff messy.

Quote from: K-DogCollapse which could have, and should have, and would have been avoided if adults were in charge is the only collapse that is interesting.

I can agree with that. Species collapse on purpose and possible BECAUSE of the species themselves. Global thermonuclear war comes to mind. Climate change as well. But neither of those have triggered one yet, but they could most assuredly cause the required population reduction.

Quote from: K-DogActs of god are boring random and tragic.

And expected. But how can human induced collapse NOT be tragic as well? We don't own any secrets to the Universe that say us clever monkeys are immune for being stupid, tragic, ignorant, self centered and self destructive in  general. I would venture that humans are so flipping stupid they fall for nonsense, science denying hogwash that sounds good more often than they do scientific fact. Religion being a GREAT example, and peak oil being a smaller and more recent version.

Quote from: K-DogThings won't get interesting enough for TDOS until there is mass death.  But that is like only reading the end of a story.

Collapse isn't collapse without poulation decline. Sorry. But all KINDS of horrible things can happen without population decline/collapse. No one is going to call the Holodomor a good thing, or Pol Pot's stunts, or Mao's Great Chinese famine, etc etc.

Collapse is certainly collapse. It just hasn't happened yet. But there is always hope in the corner of the internet waiting with baited breath. The peak oilers have moved on, currently climate change has my vote for highest probability, with a more thorough cleansing GRB waiting in the wings, but timing unknown. 

Spain, France, Germany, Greece, Belgium... basically the whole continent is burning up.  For the Deniers who say "we've always had forest fires", I can categorically state that in the 7 decades I have been around, there has never been a summer where the entire European continent had wildfires burning.

Similarly, since the Hoover Dam was built during thee Great Depression, Lake Mead never went so low it was within 150 feet of Dead Pool level.  If it doesn't drop below this season, next year it's basically guaranteed.  What isn't mentioned is that besides Hoover, there are many other smaller dams and hydro plants that are in similar state.  Some of the lost power may be replaced by increased thermal generation, but that just means still more CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere.  The water for agriculture also can't be replaced.

It's not Collapse though, right? 🙄  Maybe by 2032.



RE

Slow Cooking.

RE

Quote from: REIt's not Collapse though, right? 🙄  Maybe by 2032.

Certainly with events like this kicking in sooner rather than later, and coming in waves instead of one here or there, 6 years is at least a possibility. But probably a low one.

We'll get there. Tic Toc.

RE

QuoteIntensifies global weather patterns, causing heavier storms, floods, and droughts.

Seems to me a worldwide famine could be in the works.

Quote from: RE on Aug 25, 2026, 05:06 PMWe'll get there. Tic Toc.

RE

We've been "getting there" since you discovered the topic. Sometime in the last century it became of interest right? Been gretting there....a LONG time now...and.....well...next.....<week-month-year-decade-centennial> maybe?

I would venture that after decades now, numberous website involvements (which themselves "got there" WAY before much of anything else cool) that it must be irritating to still be waiting. So the substitution of just political type stuff would make sense because at least it is "happening" as it were. Plus slow motion CO2 changes and stuff.

Quote from: K-Dog on Aug 25, 2026, 05:33 PM

QuoteIntensifies global weather patterns, causing heavier storms, floods, and droughts.

Seems to me a worldwide famine could be in the works.

You never know! Even since the Mayan Calendar thing fizzled out though I haven't been holding my breath.

Quote from: TDoS on Aug 25, 2026, 06:08 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Aug 25, 2026, 05:33 PM

QuoteIntensifies global weather patterns, causing heavier storms, floods, and droughts.

Seems to me a worldwide famine could be in the works.

You never know! Even since the Mayan Calendar thing fizzled out though I haven't been holding my breath.

Intensive maize agriculture, with extensive deforestation for fuel and plaster production, with unchecked population growth pushed the fragile tropical ecosystem past carrying capacity  Multi-decade ninth century droughts made crop yields plummet.  Leading to social problems.  Ecological and economic collapse triggered political fragmentation, widespread famine, and destructive warfare that emptied the major cities of millions of inhabitants. Vacant and untended, once-grand stone plazas and monumental buildings were overgrown by tropical vegetation, the jungle claimed it all.

Their calendar at the end of the day was not worth shit.

Quote from: TDoS on Aug 25, 2026, 06:07 PMSo the substitution of just political type stuff would make sense because at least it is "happening" as it were.

The Political, Sociological & Economic aspects of Collapse are the most interesting part.  That's what has made the last 20 years so entertaining.

RE