Quote from: TDoS on May 10, 2024, 04:22 PMI told her it was Chinese and she couldn't have it and to suck it up and stick with reliable Japanese stuff that isn't chock full of Chinese spyware recording her every move. Just like the Tesla she wants I imagine.

So far, they haven't made the cripple scooters & wheelchairs smart enough to spy on what goes on inside an FSoA Warehouse for the crippled and dying boomers.  I wouldn't mind having a touchscreen, voice controls and an eyeball tracker that would take the chair in the direction I look at.

RE

If you can't beat 'em, tax 'em.  Motto of the capitalists who can't compete.

The Chinese have so thoroughly out performed FSoA based EV manufacturers that they have persuaded the Goobermint they despise for regulating them to protect them by now raising Tariffs on imports to...get this... 100%!!!  I take back what I said earlier that Chinese EVs were a better buy with the "ridiculous" tariffs, which at the time were ridiculous at 25%.  Now however they have jacked it way past ridiculous to Protectionism on Steroids at 100%.

This will effectively make Chinese EVs impossible to buy here, but it will also kill any sale of FSoA EVs to China, since they will most certainly retaliate in kind.  It also means FSoA EVs won't sell anywhere else in the world because Chinese EVs will be so much cheaper nobody will buy them.

If I were the CCP, I would also retaliate with tariffs on exports of chips and other parts used for the manufacture of FSoA EVs to 100%.  This has the makings of a major trade war, which just about always evolves into the more lively kind of war.

This is failure on the grand scale technologically speaking.  Sure, the Chiinese play fast and loose with environmental regulations and they pay slave wages to their workers, but that has been true in every industry and until now was embraced by FSoA capitalists as a way to improve their profits by moving their manufacturing to China.  Now that Chinese companies are making the profits, all of a sudden it's unfair.  Talk about hypocrisy.

It also pretty much dooms the FSoA EV industry, since there aren't enough people with enough money to buy expensive EVs currently manufactured here.

After a brief vacation with some Hopium, today our future survival prognosis has dipped back again down to the 99% dieoff range.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-plans-raise-tariffs-electric-vehicles-china-rcna151748

https://www.ft.com/content/9b79b340-50e0-4813-8ed2-42a30e544e58

US set to impose 100% tariff on Chinese electric vehicle imports

RE

Quote from: RE on May 11, 2024, 07:21 PMIf you can't beat 'em, tax 'em.  Motto of the capitalists who can't compete.

The Chinese have so thoroughly out performed FSoA based EV manufacturers that they have persuaded the Goobermint they despise for regulating them to protect them by now raising Tariffs on imports to...get this... 100%!!!  I take back what I said earlier that Chinese EVs were a better buy with the "ridiculous" tariffs, which at the time were ridiculous at 25%.  Now however they have jacked it way past ridiculous to Protectionism on Steroids at 100%.

This will effectively make Chinese EVs impossible to buy here, but it will also kill any sale of FSoA EVs to China, since they will most certainly retaliate in kind.  It also means FSoA EVs won't sell anywhere else in the world because Chinese EVs will be so much cheaper nobody will buy them.

If I were the CCP, I would also retaliate with tariffs on exports of chips and other parts used for the manufacture of FSoA EVs to 100%.  This has the makings of a major trade war, which just about always evolves into the more lively kind of war.

This is failure on the grand scale technologically speaking.  Sure, the Chiinese play fast and loose with environmental regulations and they pay slave wages to their workers, but that has been true in every industry and until now was embraced by FSoA capitalists as a way to improve their profits by moving their manufacturing to China.  Now that Chinese companies are making the profits, all of a sudden it's unfair.  Talk about hypocrisy.

It also pretty much dooms the FSoA EV industry, since there aren't enough people with enough money to buy expensive EVs currently manufactured here.

After a brief vacation with some Hopium, today our future survival prognosis has dipped back again down to the 99% dieoff range.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-plans-raise-tariffs-electric-vehicles-china-rcna151748

https://www.ft.com/content/9b79b340-50e0-4813-8ed2-42a30e544e58

US set to impose 100% tariff on Chinese electric vehicle imports

RE

Quote"We don't think the playing field is level," Yellen responded. "And we think China is massively subsidizing investment in this set of industries that they have targeted as critical to their growth prospects."

The bitch thinks it is a game.  She thinks some people have a right to force other people to buy from them?  That these same born to wear a suit people have a right to profit from exploiting others (you and me) without working themselves? 

Strange indeed.  I always thought the rules of capitalism were that if you can't compete you go out of business.  Is there a thing called too rich to fail?  Must be.  Don't people like Yellen usually claim competition keeps capitalism fair?  The take away seems to be that protecting dynastic suit wearing wealth is more important than competition.

Playing field really?  Who gets to play?  Is it my turn yet?  What do you mean I don't get to play?  Who gets to play then?

If an American owned company were using a Chinese  factory everything would be hunky dory.  But liberal free-market globalism isn't what it used to be so it seems.  The Chinese are supposed to be slave workers not owners.  It seems the plan of Rich American Useless Eaters had a few holes.  It was not thought out too well.  Given time the other foot would try on the shoe.  Apparently the American MOFOs who set up the current free trade arrangement expected the next generation to reap the consequences of the shoe moving to the other foot, not them.  Surprise surprise.

If it is a game, why didn't America subsidize electric cars.  Or do we have arbitrary rules.  Nobody asked me if I wanted to play Yellen's game.  Regarding a tariff, the only issue should be are the Chinese auto workers getting a fair wage.  And there is no Yellen about that, and there never will be!

Quote from: KdogIf it is a game, why didn't America subsidize electric cars.  Or do we have arbitrary rules.  Nobody asked me if I wanted to play Yellen's game.  Regarding a tariff, the only issue should be are the Chinese auto workers getting a fair wage.  And there is no Yellen about that, and there never will be!

It ain't about the wages, because if it was, Amerikan manufacturers could simply put the factories in Mejico or half a dozen other SA countries where there are gobs of UE people looking for jobs at any wage.  It would slow down the immigration problem also.  It's just an epic failure to compete, and the response is so knee jerk simplistic and bound to fail it boggles the mind.

First off, it means FSoA EVs won't sell in Europe EITHER because they will not drop on 100% tariffs, they want cheap EVs people can afford.  Besides that, the Eurotrash have their own EV models coming in at close to the same prices as the Chinese ones.  So unless we add 100% tariffs to those, they will hit the market here instead.  The Euros might drop a 25% tariff on since their cheap EVs aren't as high tech and cool to keep them somewhat competitive, but no way will they go up to 100%.

This leaves FSoA car manufacturers with ONLY the local market to sell to, they are shut out globally of the rest of the world.  GM & Ford international divisions are a substantial piece of their annual revenue stream.  They can kiss that goodbye.

The question is, will the Amerikan Konsumer rebel here?  The same people who buy EVs are the ones who travel overseas and take vacations in Europe and China too.  Don't you think a few will be a little ticked off when they walk around Paris or London and see EVs in showroom windows brand new listing at €15K?

Also, what's to stop you from buying one down in Mexico and driving it back home?  Are they going to charge you the tariff at the border when you cross?  How do they know WTF you paid for the car?  As long as you have it registered and have legal plates on it, it's none of their bizness how much you paid for the car.  Maybe you won it in a poker game.

Want a Chinese EV?  Here's my instructions.

Contact a car dealership in Tiajuana.  Give their address as the importer.  Pay the Dealership maybe $500 for receiving and storage.  Pay the Chinese exporter for the car and the shipping cost.  Maybe $2000 in shipping.  Find out the tariff they will charge at the port when the dealer picks it up.  I'll guess 10%, Mexicans aren't in a trade war with the Chinese.  So on a $15K car, $1500.  Your cost flying 1 way to Mexico to pick it up, max $300 from anywhere in the lower 48.  Your total cost, $19,300 for the car.

After it arrives at the dealership, get the VIN number, make & model from him over the phone, and have him fax you the bill of sale.  Go to your local DMV with the paperwork and your home address and get plates for the car before you fly down to pick it up.  Arrive in Tijuana, stop for a Dos Equis and Burrito on the way to the dealership, hand the dealer $500, bolt the plates on the car and drive it home.  You can stop and pick up some cheap antibiotics and opiates if you have a prescription, and stop for some dental work also before crossing the border coming home.

The only possible problem I see is in the registration, I don't know if the VIN numbers will work at the DMV.  It's possible that the way they do the tariff is the manufacturer has to pay the tariff in order to get the VIN number authorized in the FSoA, but I don't *think* it's done that way.  DMV is a State agency, not Federal.  I think they handle the VIN numbers.  I may be wrong there though.  If it is done that way, perhaps you would get caught if the state doesn't find the VIN number as authorized, then they wouldn't let you register the car

In this case, you would either have to register it in Mexico and get Mexican plates on it, or take plates from another car and use them.  They wouldn't match the car though, which gets you in trouble if you get pulled over for a traffic violation.  However, I don't think it works this way.  Obviously, find out first before you try this.  If any of you do try it, le me know if it works.

RE

Normally, I think import tariffs are collected at the port where the vehicles arrive and they are listed in the manifest of the containers on the ship.  So when a car arrives from China in Mexico, the importer pays the tariff to the Mexican goobermint before they will release it from the Customs impound lot.  Once you've paid that, the car is yours.   

The Chinese have wasted no time in calling out the new tariffs as in violation of WTO rules, making all the obvious (& true) points that this won't really bother the Chinese producers who have their own consumers & the rest of the world to sell their cars to, but mainly hurt FSoA consumers who have to pay more for the locally made dogshit.  They also point out the FSoA subsidizes EVs here at least as much if not more than they do, and the real problem is just that they can't compete.

The other point they make is that this is a "political move" to help the Dems in an election year, except I don't see how it heps whe inflation is killing consumers purchasing power, keeping affordable EVs off the market here helps so much.  About the only people it helps are Auto workers, who see this as a way to protect their jobs.  Except the UAW is already staunchly Democratic and you're not going to get any extra votes.  It's also pretty much bullshit that it protects their jobs, because as I mentioned previously, they will lose jobs anyhow because the cars they are building are too expensive for most people to buy.

So, we'll see how long the mega-tariff strategy works.  I doubt it will help Tesla sell many more of their overpriced dogshit, and Muskrat has petty much given up on the sales model and wants to turn Tesla into a RoboTaxi service anyhow.  GM & Ford have decided they will just go back to selling gas guzzling SUVs & Pickups, which are doing just fine since there's still plenty of gas at the pumps.  So lots of Greenwashing about Hydrogen cars and renewable electrification projects, but same old same old in the transportation industry in the FSoA, Land of the free and home of the Happy Motorist.  So it goes.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202405/1312126.shtml

US reported tariffs of Chinese EV to backfire: experts

RE

According to Electrive, the L6 went on presale in April and is expected to officially hit the market in May.

Will the Chinese retaliate & add a 100% export tariff onto the new batt?  I certainly would if I was the CCP.

https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/semi-solid-state-batteries-ev-im-motors-cost-range/

Chinese automaker launches EV that could eliminate major issue with electric cars: 'Will completely solve the mileage anxiety'

RE

Trying to decipher the claims made in this latest hype of a new battery technology was not easy.  It's a REALLY bad translation from Chinese or the tech writer himself is Chinese with a poor command of english who tried to explain it directly.  I suspect if he wrote it in Chinese and haf Google translate do the English translation, it would have been more clear.

In any event, at first I thought this was another claim of using Water as fuel to produce Hydrogen, but it's not.  It's just a different Chemistry for a type of rechargeable battery to replace Li-I chemistry.  The claim is that the battery has a far greater capacity for holding charge for a given size and weight.  In other words, greater energy density.  Based on what this guy wrote in garbled english, is it possible and what is it?

The answer is a qualified yes.  The key is the materials used for Cathode and Anode.  The anode is aluminum and cathode is magnesium oxide.  Why it's possible is because the oxidation-reduction of aluminum atoms has about the largest potential difference of any element on the periodic table.  It's sort of a Mt Everest of potential energy for electrons that a rock has thrown off the top of Everest.

Why I find it questionable is the use of water as the electrolyte and Protons fron the water as the positive ion charge carrier.  That is very novel and weird battery chemistry.  The author also mentions ATP as involved in this whole business somehow, which is totally out of place.  ATP is an organic molecule used for energy transport in all living cells, but not in inorganic chemistry.  Perhaps the author was just trying to make an analogy on energy density, otherwise it's nuts.

If the batt in fact works, it would give a much larger range between charges, though not infinite.  It might give you something like a 1000 mile range though.

If they do make one, it will have a 100% tariff on it. lol.

https://www.ecoticias.com/en/first-water-battery-car/2175/

The first water battery that your car can carry: infinite autonomy without recharging

RE

Not in China.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-69022771

Is the move to electric cars running out of power?

RE

No surprise the Chinese will respond with tariffs on FSoA carz.  Not sure how many of these are sold in China or how big a source of profit that is for the Big 3 automakers here, but it's definitely more than what the Chinese make selling EVs here now, since that number is practically zero.

Asmentioned before, this political move has just about no economic upside and justification.  Only question is how long it takes to develop blowback.

https://jalopnik.com/the-electric-vehicle-tariff-war-will-just-make-everyone-1851492911

The Electric Vehicle Tariff War Will Just Make Everyone Poor

RE

Not that anything The Donald says ever makes sense, but it's hard to see the point of this promise.  If people don't want an EV, nobody is forcing them (yet) to buy one.  FSoA automakerss are still making the big V8 powered SUVs & trucks rednecks love.  How could he stop it?  I suppose taking away the tax credit for buying them would depress the sales, but they're supposed to go away anyhow.

I would think promising to make them CHEAPER would appeal to Amerikans who need a bargain on something these days.

Anybody think they can explain this?

https://gizmodo.com/donald-trump-says-stop-electric-car-sales-1851503550

Donald Trump Says He'll Stop All Electric Car Sales

RE

Quote from: RE on May 28, 2024, 10:07 AMNot that anything The Donald says ever makes sense, but it's hard to see the point of this promise.  If people don't want an EV, nobody is forcing them (yet) to buy one.

Your idea on what happens between now and when California tries to make it happen?

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/09/23/governor-newsom-announces-california-will-phase-out-gasoline-powered-cars-drastically-reduce-demand-for-fossil-fuel-in-californias-fight-against-climate-change/

Quote from: REAnybody think they can explain this?
Donald Trump Says He'll Stop All Electric Car Sales
RE

Sure. Trump says stupid shit in the moment because he's a charlatan and stupid shit sounds good, couldn't explain it himself if you asked him, so if he can't explain it, can anyone else do it on his behalf without proving they have a mind meld with a halfwit?

Quote from: RE on May 28, 2024, 10:07 AMNot that anything The Donald says ever makes sense, but it's hard to see the point of this promise.  If people don't want an EV, nobody is forcing them (yet) to buy one.  FSoA automakerss are still making the big V8 powered SUVs & trucks rednecks love.  How could he stop it?  I suppose taking away the tax credit for buying them would depress the sales, but they're supposed to go away anyhow.

I would think promising to make them CHEAPER would appeal to Amerikans who need a bargain on something these days.

Anybody think they can explain this?

https://gizmodo.com/donald-trump-says-stop-electric-car-sales-1851503550

Donald Trump Says He'll Stop All Electric Car Sales

RE

Easy to explain.  Duck soup really.

Concerning climate change. Donald Trump would put Greta Thunberg on a spit and roast her over an open fire and then put an apple in her mouth afterwards if he could.

Trump is big oil and money all the way.  This should be a surprise why?

But electric cars are big government and regulation up the ying-yang all of which is hated by the Trump base.  Hated but don't ask them to explain it, they can't.

On the other hand.  Biden is Mr. Status Quo, save the planet doncha-know.  The following is wrong, and I give it the gong.  But it has to unfortunately be seen to be discussed.  As painful as that is.

QuoteWhile a Trump presidency couldn't slam the brakes on the E.V. transition, it could throw enough sand in the gears to slow it down. And that might have significant consequences for the fight to stop global warming.

President Biden placed electric vehicles at the heart of his climate agenda because scientists say that a rapid switch from gasoline-powered cars to electric versions is one of the most effective ways to slow the carbon dioxide emissions that are dangerously heating the planet. Last year was the hottest in recorded history and scientists say the world is on track to heat up even more, to the point where parts of the planet will be unlivable.

Total bullshit from Chief Fossil Lynchpin.  The square-knot tying together the boomer and great generations.  The current power-holder who inflicts his ignorance on equally ignorant masses.  Some of whom will also abuse power when their time comes.

The planet is in overshoot, massive changes in living arrangements is the only way a new dark age can be avoided.  Any attempt to maintain current arrangements is criminal and I pray for justice.  Justice because what people like Mr. Biden are bringing to America is total disaster.  Biden and other members of the Status-Quo liberal crowd dream of a fantasy future that reality can't maintain.  When their grand experiment flops, pain and suffering for all will be the reward.

Fun Fact.  After all considerations are factored in.  Electric cars don't reduce carbon emissions.  But you have to be able to do math to understand this.  And that is not even enough.  Sadly many who can do math have trouble seeing a 'big picture'.  They are narrow in focus.

Looking at the big picture is necessary for comprehension here.  Two contradictory skills are required to understand environmental reality.  Finding both abilities in one person is rare.

Carbon Fee and Dividend is the answer.  Local economies that can support a closed system of sustainable lead-acid powered electric cars would be a more appropriate electric car than a Musk Husk.

A Mush Husk is designed to compete directly with gasoline and diesel cars, It does not have a smaller carbon footprint than a gasoline equivalent.

Lead Acid cars would work better because range is limited to 100 miles and max speed would be 60 mph.  Half of what a Musk Husk can do both ways.  Reduced capability is better than everyone starving to death. 

And this is why,

Trump and Biden are both criminal.  Both men care nothing for anybody but themselves and their tribe.

Less can be more.  But in America I can't be believed.  Americans are brainwashed into denying reality and get angry if their delusions are discussed.  Can a country which thinks gender is a choice possibly understand that running out of stuff can really happen?

I think not, and unfortunately I know not!  In America delusion is stronger than science.

Quotebecause scientists say that a rapid switch from gasoline-powered cars to electric versions is one of the most effective ways to slow the carbon dioxide emissions that are dangerously heating the planet.

Just what the doctor ordered.  Same tune, different decade.  At the time every brand had Scientists and Doctors explaining the health benefits of their smoke.  This is just the add I chose to post.  I had many choices.

Science exists, but that does not mean all scientists do it.  The green revolution is a dream without steam which blossoms with delusion.

How do the Apples and Oranges compare?

Without considering Jevons Paradox which makes the carbon footprint of car use in general greater, the savings by going electric as things are now is minimal.

I won't burden you with the math, I did it.

Gasoline Car: 0.356 kg CO₂ per mile.

Tesla Electric Car (coal-powered power plant): 0.318 kg CO₂ per mile.

The final ratio is approximately 0.893.

A Tesla charged from a coal-fired power plant, produces about 89.3% of the CO₂ per mile of a typical gas powered car. The Tesla's emissions are only about 10.7% lower.  The energy will be cleaner you say?  Where else can you get it I'll ask.

I have not yet considered the carbon footprint of building the Tesla.

Producing a 75 kWh Tesla battery pack uses about 13,125 kWh of energy.  This requires   about 5.97 tons of coal.  This energy is equivalent to charging the battery 175 times.

Including this in the calculation TOTALLY NEGATES the 10.7% lower emissions per mile.

The mileage lifetime at which TOTAL CO₂ emissions of a Tesla electric car EQUALS those of a gas powered car is 164,803 miles given the data considered.  The data has ONLY considered the power needed to build a Tesla battery.  There are other considerations such as the carbon footprint of a lithium mine.  Where does the energy come from to double the size of the poser grid? 

Beyond 164,803 miles, a Tesla would have lower total CO₂ emissions than a gasoline car.  Below this mileage a Tesla pollutes more than a gas powered car does.

That figure is in the range of how long an average American car lasts and it takes between 11 and 15 years to accumulate that much mileage.  Accidents resulting in lost cars further reduce the average lifetime of a car to less than 10 years.

Electric cars are not an environmental wash, they result in a loss.  And I have not discussed the required mining operations needed to support battery production and power distribution.  Both of which have huge environmental impacts.

Quote from: K-Dog on May 28, 2024, 04:24 PMTrump is big oil and money all the way.  This should be a surprise why?

It's not, but I still don't see why a promise to get rid of EVs gets him more votes.  It might appeal to people stupid enough already to support him, but of those who currently are Undecided, which gets more votes- promising to get rid of EVs or promising cheaper EVs?

You are right of course that as long as the power to charge the EV fleet is coming predominantly from FF fired thermal power plants, there is little if any reduction in total CO₂ emissions.  Plus additional environmental damage from the Lithium mining as long as that is the predominant battery chemistry used.

So, neither candidate is proposing a solution that will work, but which one sells to the most as yet uncommitted voters?  Or does that not even matter anymore?  Is it now strictly a matter of ideology combined with a "throw the bums out" psychology where people vote for whoever is NOT currently in office because whoever is in office is held responsible for the collapsing economic and social success of the society?

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on May 28, 2024, 04:24 PM

Quote from: RE on May 28, 2024, 10:07 AMAnybody think they can explain this?
https://gizmodo.com/donald-trump-says-stop-electric-car-sales-1851503550
Donald Trump Says He'll Stop All Electric Car Sales
RE

Trump is big oil and money all the way.  This should be a surprise why?

Trump doesn't have the balls or brains to BE big oil. Or little oil. Or microscopic oil. He's a semi-literate grifter of the first order and, and that shit don't fly in the oil field. Only results do.

Quote from: K-Dog on May 28, 2024, 04:24 PMElectric cars are not an environmental wash, they result in a loss.  And I have not discussed the required mining operations needed to support battery production and power distribution.  Both of which have huge environmental impacts.

Similar to ICE powered cages like...a Benz perhaps? So...effectively, neither ICE cagers nor Benz cagers give a shit about the environment?

Perhaps EV cagers using solar panels to fuel their cage have an advantage in "the holier than thou" department? Certainly cagers doing the "stomp and steer" routine are in cages for a reason, regardless.