Quote from: K-Dog on May 23, 2025, 02:11 PMI'd rather work on this stuff for my own reasons.  Praise of money is all the American mind seems to think about.  We put all our vital juices into the quest for money, yet we call ourselves free.

Define "free". I consider myself free. You seem to be. RE is in a jam for freedom but that is a physical thing.

"We" put all our vital juices into a quest for money? Out of us 3 geriatrics, I don't get the impression that applies to "we".

I just put vital juices into finding a means to not eat venison and be trapped in a social structure of the holler. That was freedom, the goal was never to become some money grubbing asshole....or worse yet one of those people who resent that others have more.

I resent the few who have too much while there are so many with not enough.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 31, 2025, 05:45 AMI resent the few who have too much while there are so many with not enough.

RE

resent:feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person)

So is it bitterness, which implies it isn't fair that someone has more than you, or indignation that someone has managed, by hook or by crook or hard work, new ideas, exceptional intellect, to have gained/acquired or earned it?

Around here TPTB don't like the idea of someone like Elon starting with little, and working his way up the food chain. The very logical defense of how it happened is verboten and erased.

So how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.  Provided they do not screw anybody over to get it, and Musk certainly did.  But since he has so much of the green stuff you claim not to care about very much, you give him a pass.  And I don't. 

I really do not give two fucks if you think I get bent out of shape if people have too much money or not.  That is your issue.  You confuse having a lot of money with being a good person, and while you point a finger at me, three point back at you.  You have far more of the green-eyed monster than I do to even bring it up.

In general people preventing the paradigm shift for selfish reasons because they are personally comfortable, and financially well off deserve my ire.  The amount of actual money they have has nothing to do with it.  It is about their attitude.  Steve Wozniak is one of the nicest men I have ever met. He can afford to be.  As far as Musk goes, he has done things that would put other people in prison.  So why is he not there.

And concerning Musk specifically, Musk is anti-progress.  Musk insisted that the electric car be a drop in replacement for a sports car, and nothing else.  Musk insists that rich white people make all the decisions.  And that has not worked out well.  Musk, having more money than brains, prevents the paradigm shift that could could have fucking saved civilization.

If you think just having money provokes my ire, you are a little man with childish thoughts.  It is 1000 times more complicated than that for me.  Having more money than brains is the problem.

Quote from: K-Dog on May 31, 2025, 12:41 PM

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.

Would you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'm sure there are McDonalds' workers who think my 7 figure net worth number for rich folk would make them thrilled. It is relative I'm betting.

Quote from: K-DogProvided they do not screw anybody over to get it, and Musk certainly did.

Well, you would need to be more clear on the Diner definition of "screw over" and what it consists of...besides him having come up with a good idea and managed to make it work.

Quote from: K-DogBut since he has so much of the green stuff you claim not to care about very much, you give him a pass.  And I don't. 

I don't care about the green stuff much. Once you get past having the basics for your family, much beyond that is showing off. And I DON'T give Elon a pass, the results he has generated IRL is just one criteria. Results aren't just about how big a pile of cash you have.

As far as no pass, of course I don't give him a pass. I don't like dopers by definition, it is a character thing, and Elon lacks it severely. Even without throwing in him being a philandering scumbag.

Money is never the measure of a man. That you would think that yourself to use as a slur against me is offensive.

Quote from: k-dogI really do not give two fucks if you think I get bent out of shape if people have too much money or not. 

Well that is good to hear, because we are well past needing to mention your near pathological revulsion for folks with money....the irony of which I have previously noted.

Quote from: k-dogIn general people preventing the paradigm shift for selfish reasons because they are personally comfortable, and financially well off deserve my ire.

So what might be the selfish reason? Not wanting to lose what they've got? You do seem a bit sensitive to that topic of being included with those in the personally comfortable column.

Quote from: K-DogThe amount of actual money they have has nothing to do with it.  It is about their attitude.  Steve Wozniak is one of the nicest men I have ever met. He can afford to be.  As far as Musk goes, he has done things that would put other people in prison.  So why is he not there.

I've done things that have put other people in prison. So what. Lacking a conviction you've got an opinion and nothing else. That and "innocent until proven guilty". You have a disagreement with the judicial system in this country, that is different than being peeved at rich folk.

Quote from: K-DogIf you think just having money provokes my ire, you are a little man with childish thoughts.  It is 1000 times more complicated than that for me.  Having more money than brains is the problem.

You judge quite often, and quickly it would appear. "A little man"...amusing...you don't know anything about me, other than I'm generally disagreeable and on some topics am beyond just professionally well informed in my area of expertise.

Quote from: TDoS on May 31, 2025, 02:04 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on May 31, 2025, 12:41 PM

QuoteSo how much can someone earn for themselves before they desire your ire?

Ten million seems a good number.

Would you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'll take the bet.  We established criteria for what constitutes "rich" in 2025 Amerika in this thread so that we would have an objective measure here on the Diner.  Upper Middle Class under this criteria should be plenty for anyone.

RE

Quote from: RE on May 31, 2025, 06:29 PM

Quote from: TDoS on May 31, 2025, 02:04 PMWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

I'll take the bet.  We established criteria for what constitutes "rich" in 2025 Amerika in this thread so that we would have an objective measure here on the Diner.

No...you erased my entire calculated number post in order to pretend it didn't exist, and then substituted your own. Your "we" was basically....you.

Quote from: REUpper Middle Class under this criteria should be plenty for anyone.
RE

According to you. I was quite happy that Mr and Mrs K-Dog could easily sell their house and continue to live with an excellent lifestyle for their 7 figure net worth, while you posited they would be homeless with so little available upon liquidating their real estate investment.

I did the math. It was just CFS.

Quote from: TDoS on May 31, 2025, 07:47 PMAccording to you.

No, according to Ivy Grace writing for Bezinga Financial Services.

RE

QuoteWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

Is a childish oversimplification.  The point is relative to:

Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen
There, I made it easy for you, you can just copy and paste it into Google.  In only two clicks you will know what it means.

Actually $5 million would meet reasonable individual needs.  Especially if health care was nationalized.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 04:48 AM

QuoteWould you like to bet that this number is relative to the net worth/richness/whatever of the person handing out the number?

Is a childish oversimplification.

It is one of the most basic scientific precepts....define your terms explicitly. Agree on the metric itself, in this case relative versus nominal. This is not a childish simplication, it is a relative perspective between someone with your networth versus the average McDonalds employee. They can't afford a heat pump for their house, and you can do it to feel better about how eco-friendly you are. And owning luxury cars, because you've earned them...but then you help save the environment by not using them very much. An intersting argument in favor of virtue signaling, but it really only works if you have the bumper sticker. "Sure I have a couple of Benz....but I don't drive them much to help save the environment."

Quote from: K-DogThe point is relative to:

Code Select Expand

Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen

Thanks, I won the Bismark aware for excellence in German in high school. So Marx slogans that happily led to the real  life application by the likes of Stalin and Mao is the best you can come up with?

What's wrong with Arbeit macht frei? Good enough for the Nazi's, I bet it its right in with what Marx gave to Stalin, Mao and Kim II-Sung.

Quote from: k-DogThere, I made it easy for you, you can just copy and paste it into Google.  In only two clicks you will know what it means.

Actually $5 million would meet reasonable individual needs.  Especially if health care was nationalized.

$5 million is what someone sitting at the bottom of the 7 figure mark might think meets individual needs. Fine.  Seems reasonable to folks of our net worth.

And how much do you think that McDonalds worker thinks is enough? Because odds are it won't be $5M. They aren't factoring in nice matching luxury cars for them and their spouse I bet, or high value real estate, let alone their savings that some folks can happily invest at low rates because they feel that secure in their financial level. And can afford to be environmentally friendly with new tech for their home as well.

That McDonald's worker might be thrilled to just have a decent woodpile at the beginning of each winter. I know grandma did. Me, I was just happy we could put kerosene in the kerosene heater when we didn't have running water in the winter.

It is childish to confuse need and want.  An order of magnitude more than average keeps the wolf from the door and satisfies all needs.  If you think money is only for toys, and you do.  That is childish.

In capitalism wages are driven down to subsistence levels, enough for workers to survive and keep them working.  And perhaps just enough to keep them passive.  Capitalists compete by lowering wages.  Fair pay is not achievable under capitalism, and only under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of their labor.

Your claim is that this clear headed explanation results from my 'relative position' in life, and you spew childish right wing propaganda back at me in response.  To which I say, fuck you.

It isn't about the relative perception of wealth of a low paid member of the working class, it's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.  The expensive toys like private jets, super yachts, mansions and AI data centers and rocket ships are symbols of the power and tools to exert power.  So what a Mickey D's employee thinks is rich s irrelevant.  What is relevant is the point at which you have enough wealth to begin to move in the circles where you can begin to influence the decisions that affect the direction of society.  When you have enough money to buy a $1M ticket to a Crypto Dinner at the WH, you're well into in that class.  When you    can spring for a junket to Vegas for your local State Assemblyman you're at the low end of the class.

Bezinga Finacial Services is a wealth management company that caters to this class of people, so they do research to identify their potential clients.  The numbers Ivy Grace put up identify their target clients and let their readers  who are still just climbing the ladder know how much it takes to be more than just another well off person with a big house and new Mercedes.

It's not a hard and absolute number because there are intangibles involved besides money, like family connections, your profession and education and your notoriety or fame that are involved also.  It's definitely more than just $1M though and less than $100M.  Depending on intangibles, in most cases probably $5-10M gets you to the bottom of the ladder in 2025 Amerika.

RE

Quoteit's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.

Yes money replaced the sword.  The violence of lead and iron is replaced by the violence of silver and gold.  Silver and gold taken from the surplus value of the labor of other men.

And like fish who are fine, oblivious to the water around them, people are oblivious to the power they have. People possess the power, but they are fine with giving it up.  Injustice is more comfortable than the unknown.

So the beat goes on.   

As an example:

Power from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.  500,000 pro-growth, limited government Americans is the claim.  Reality is billionaires pay for it.  One of them and there are more than one is #25 in the world.  They give bribes awards to politicians.  And if you want to donate to the billionaires they will gladly take your money.  They have a link to that.

How sad it is, the parable of the tribes.

The bottom line is two possible outcomes:



(1) Mutual annihilation.

(2) Or an end to the struggle for power, a just world order guided by reason and values.

Quote from: K-Dog on Jun 01, 2025, 11:43 AMIt is childish to confuse need and want.  An order of magnitude more than average keeps the wolf from the door and satisfies all needs.  If you think money is only for toys, and you do.  That is childish.

I do not think money is only for toys. Again, please point claims without merit at others. Neither have I ever confused need and want. Once you learn this young, it sticks. Irritates the crap out of the wife, all the decades we've been married.

Quote from: K-DogIn capitalism wages are driven down to subsistence levels, enough for workers to survive and keep them working.

So, in America, after centuries of capitalism....why are my wages not at subsistence levels? Why are my kids wages not at subsistence levels? Why were my parents wages not at subsistence levels? Does this rule only apply to minimum wage workers....one of the clues in capitalism being the title "minimum wage"? Which is to say....there are still plenty who make more than this number and therefore capitalism STILL after centuries hasn't driven wages down to subsistence levels.

Is there a timeframe for your statement to take effect? Because within the advocates to the ideals of Marx, who then used that idea to run countries, those countries seemed to get to subsistence wages far faster than America.

Quote from: K-DogAnd perhaps just enough to keep them passive.  Capitalists compete by lowering wages.  Fair pay is not achievable under capitalism, and only under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of their labor.

I dispute that fair pay is not achievable in American capitalism. I have been paid fair wages for most of my career. The wife is paid fair wages, no college degree, out of the work force until the kids went to college, and learned her way up the pay scale starting at age 40. Took her less than a decade to go WAY past fair pay.

So no, not ONLY under socialism can workers receive the full fruits of not JUST their labor, but can do the same with their brains and the ability to USE them while doing that labor.

Quote from: K-DogYour claim is that this clear headed explanation results from my 'relative position' in life, and you spew childish right wing propaganda back at me in response.  To which I say, fuck you.

As someone who happily assigns every fault you can enunciate of your world view to me, I don't know what to do other than...sigh? As a registered independent, I see points on both sides of the aisle, and certainly don't espouse right wing propaganda. But if it makes you feel better to have a target, and vent, well then good for you, having a punching bag to let off some steam.

Quote from: RE on Jun 01, 2025, 12:55 PMIt isn't about the relative perception of wealth of a low paid member of the working class, it's about the power that comes from being so rich that you can buy control over the direction of society.

Oligarchs are entirely a different point than the trials and travels of the "working man". Whatever the hell that might mean to different people.

Quote from: REThe expensive toys like private jets, super yachts, mansions and AI data centers and rocket ships are symbols of the power and tools to exert power.  So what a Mickey D's employee thinks is rich s irrelevant.

What ANYONE thinks is relevant, as we are all created equal. Just with different perspectives. A Mickey D's employee has a perfectly valid opinion as to what seems "rich" to them. There is zero requirement, and it is probably wrong, to assume everyone of them would answer the question of "how much net worth would make you comfort in your life and living during your career at Mickey D's?" with "I WANNA BE ELON!"

Two different perspectives. Even K-Dogs perspective with his net worth didn't jump to "I WANNA BE AN OLIGARCH!!!" when he ventured his number.

Quote from: REWhat is relevant is the point at which you have enough wealth to begin to move in the circles where you can begin to influence the decisions that affect the direction of society.

Again....for YOU maybe. K-Dog says about $5,000,000 might be good. $1,000,000 seems reasonable to me as a generic guess. I have no objection to $5 million. If you have delusions of being a master of the universe type, sure, I WANNA BE ELON!!! is a reasonable angle. But that reflects the individual's personality answering the question...and a Mickey D's employee is no more required to want to be an oligarch then you are capable of becoming one at this stage in your life.

Quote from: REIt's not a hard and absolute number because there are intangibles involved besides money, like family connections, your profession and education and your notoriety or fame that are involved also.  It's definitely more than just $1M though and less than $100M.  Depending on intangibles, in most cases probably $5-10M gets you to the bottom of the ladder in 2025 Amerika.

RE

$5-$10M might be a reasonable number I can agree with...but that certainly doesn't get you to the private jet / oligarch level, or master of the universe - shaping the direction of society level.