Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 22, 2025, 06:13 AMIt will not take long to create an nation of morons.

The sentence imples future tense. Where have you been lately to think it hasn't already happened? I give origin credit mostly to the internet, I figure AI is the coupe de grace. Trump is a consequence of this happening as opposed to a prime mover.

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 22, 2025, 09:35 AM

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 22, 2025, 06:13 AMIt will not take long to create an nation of morons.

The sentence imples future tense. Where have you been lately to think it hasn't already happened? I give origin credit mostly to the internet, I figure AI is the coupe de grace. Trump is a consequence of this happening as opposed to a prime mover.

You are right, I am a dinosaur who has gone to a library at night more than once in my life, to find when I got home I had explaining to do to my wife.  The paradox is that since I had a decent education and started out old school, the internet and AI do not dumb me down.  I use them both as tools and can I understand their limitations.  A more simple explanation is that my career in electronics inoculated my brain from turning into mush.

And yes, Trump is no more than executioner for the fates.    A nexus of forces made Trump happen.

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 22, 2025, 02:19 PMYou are right, I am a dinosaur who has gone to a library at night more than once in my life, to find when I got home I had explaining to do to my wife.

I'm going to have to remember that one, it is a great "men of our age" angle. I loved libraries, didn't have a wife around to need to explain anything to though when I finally came home though.

Quote from: K-DogThe paradox is that since I had a decent education and started out old school, the internet and AI do not dumb me down. 

Nor me. Which is why I irritate people so often I suppose, pointing out when folks appear to have fallen for some of the more interesting.... "facts" and "interpretations" they find online.
 
Can you believe I got banned from peakoil.com, and big chunks of my posting history erased years before RE showed up, for daring to point out the inconsistencies, lack of critical thinking and zero desire to learn the most basic components required to understand the topic? It was quite surprising, coming from a background where intellectual combat was sought out to test the strength of ones ideas. Figured the internet would be more like that. Boy was I wrong!

 

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 22, 2025, 09:35 AM

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 22, 2025, 06:13 AMIt will not take long to create an nation of morons.

The sentence imples future tense. Where have you been lately to think it hasn't already happened? I give origin credit mostly to the internet, I figure AI is the coupe de grace. Trump is a consequence of this happening as opposed to a prime mover.

It's always been a nation of morons because the vast majority of homo saps infesting the planet are morons.  The main thing the internet has done is to allow morons to communicate their moronic ideas faster and more efficiently to a global audience.

RE

But, since we are on the internet we must not be morons as we have no global audience.

Quote from: RE on Nov 25, 2025, 02:56 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 22, 2025, 09:35 AM

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 22, 2025, 06:13 AMIt will not take long to create an nation of morons.

The sentence imples future tense. Where have you been lately to think it hasn't already happened? I give origin credit mostly to the internet, I figure AI is the coupe de grace. Trump is a consequence of this happening as opposed to a prime mover.

It's always been a nation of morons because the vast majority of homo saps infesting the planet are morons.

Ah....that's a standard smart folks answer. None of the three of us are below average in that regard. And while the normal distribution of alleged IQ doesn't allow your answer to be true..."morons" can sure be shit-stupid regardless of IQ. Peakoil.com being like a shining historical light proving just such a thing. Not the only one of course, reddit isn't bad either if you go way back in the right place. Most of the oil PO sites have disappeared memorializing what was considered the "facts" of the event at that point in time. LATOC would be the absolute GOLD STANDARD but Matt made that disappear because he sure didn't want it coming back on him as he tried to change careers to professional astrologer.

Quote from: REThe main thing the internet has done is to allow morons to communicate their moronic ideas faster and more efficiently to a global audience.

RE

Like a disease. It made people dumber, faster. So sure...it made things worse by spreading stupid shit far faster than it otherwise would have been. And did it really well, which is why it is my marker as a seismic shift.

One quick example. Colin Campball published a global peak oil claim for the world in 1990, in Noroil. Peter McCabe had a far more nuanced article published in 1998 (I was happy to have been a sounding board for him when he was looking for technical holes in his argument) and Colin Campbell came out of the woodwork, as did the French guy, and they went back and forth in print in later publications. It was great! Big ideas from experts fought out in public without the usual internet horseshit. And then the internet gives us peakoil.com....and presto....you can see the difference between the two if you were watching. I certainly did.

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 25, 2025, 04:21 AMBut, since we are on the internet we must not be morons as we have no global audience.

I agree with the unstated but implied conclusion. Not even RE can shout loud enough into the wind to overcome the hordes of mentally diminished, uninformed and desiring to stay that way folks that the internet consists of.

It took him, what, this entire century to arrive at one or two people who think similarly, and an objective observer along for the ride to watch a particular idea purely as a professional curiousity?

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 25, 2025, 09:15 AM

Quote from: RE on Nov 25, 2025, 02:56 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 22, 2025, 09:35 AM

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 22, 2025, 06:13 AMIt will not take long to create an nation of morons.

The sentence imples future tense. Where have you been lately to think it hasn't already happened? I give origin credit mostly to the internet, I figure AI is the coupe de grace. Trump is a consequence of this happening as opposed to a prime mover.

It's always been a nation of morons because the vast majority of homo saps infesting the planet are morons.

Ah....that's a standard smart folks answer. None of the three of us are below average in that regard. And while the normal distribution of alleged IQ doesn't allow your answer to be true..."morons" can sure be shit-stupid regardless of IQ.

A standard answer yes, but I can objectively show why it's true with a very high level of confidence.

As you point out, IQ alone does not make a person a moron, other factors are involved.  A fairly large number of them no doubt, but I'll just pick out a few important ones to show why this is true.

Beginning with IQ, by definition half the population has an IQ 100 or below. considered "average" intelligence.  Not necessarily a moron, but not the brightest bulb in the box either.  Genetically, being really smart is more complex than just a single gene, but in aggregate behaves like a recessive trait.  Looked at in this way in a Punnet Square, a child needs to be Homozygous for the smart gene and only 1:4 kids come out smart, the other 3:4 are Stupid.



However, many smart people are morons, because they lack the also recessive Common Fucking Sense gene.  Instead they have the dominant Easily Deluded gene. Only 1:4 kids are homozygous cfs.  You don't need to be smart to know Trump is a moron, all you need is CFS.  Neverthe less, half the people voted for him,  showing they migh not be morons themselves, but at least lack CFS.

In order to NOT be a moron, you have to be homozygous for BOTH the smart gene AND the cfs gene, which means only 1:16 people, or 3.75% of the population.

Beyond that is the consequences gene, how many steps ahead someone can work out a problem. The typical person can think 1 step ahead and be right half the time, but 2 steps ahead only a quarter of the time.  The ability to think 3 steps ahead is rare by itself and to be right more than half the time even more rare.  However, to not be a moron, you need to be able to think more than 1 step ahead and be right more than half the time.

At the very least, these three factors control human thinking and behavior, and being on the right side of the moron/not moron divide requires all 3 be positive.  It's not really so clear cut  as a single gene for any of them, otherwise less than 1% of the population would not be morons.  However, my own personal lifetime cumulative study of all the people I have ever met indicates that a MINIMUM of 90% of the global population of homo sap are MORONS.  Besides the FSoA, my lifetime sample includes Brazilians, Australians, Brits, Frogs, Krauts, Vikings and a smattering of other countries.

QED. 😀

RE

The blind obedience gene is dominant.  For sure it is not recessive.  It works with the socialization gene to make morons of otherwise capable people.  Their other abilities, being in the normal range; let them pass easily.

You need the special glasses to see them.

Quote from: RE on Nov 25, 2025, 11:55 AMAt the very least, these three factors control human thinking and behavior, and being on the right side of the moron/not moron divide requires all 3 be positive.

For starters, I liked the gene calculation explanation and went and looked up more about it prior to responding. Looking things up also revealed that a consequence and CFS gene look to be flyers, and when you ask AI about it what gets mentioned is an interaction between genetics and experience/environment. CFS seemed to also include/require a general intelligence and ability to learn. At best a "consequences gene" was attributed to combinations of others rather than its own thing.

Quote from: REIt's not really so clear cut  as a single gene for any of them, otherwise less than 1% of the population would not be morons.  However, my own personal lifetime cumulative study of all the people I have ever met indicates that a MINIMUM of 90% of the global population of homo sap are MORONS.  Besides the FSoA, my lifetime sample includes Brazilians, Australians, Brits, Frogs, Krauts, Vikings and a smattering of other countries.
QED. 😀
RE

However, jumping to the morons conclusion, 90% strikes me as a bit higher than I would have WAG'd myself. But as with experience, intelligence, and critical thinking being involved in CFS and consequences, I imagine such a number might also involve the attitude and expectations of the person making the estimate.

You are a smart guy, it isn't a surprise you would think most folks are morons.

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 25, 2025, 04:32 PMThe blind obedience gene is dominant.  For sure it is not recessive.

Couldn't find that as a specific gene either.

Quote from: K-DogIt works with the socialization gene to make morons of otherwise capable people.  Their other abilities, being in the normal range; let them pass easily.

And what type of test would you recommend to identify these types of people?

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 25, 2025, 05:42 PMFor starters, I liked the gene calculation explanation and went and looked up more about it prior to responding. Looking things up also revealed that a consequence and CFS gene look to be flyers, and when you ask AI about it what gets mentioned is an interaction between genetics and experience/environment. CFS seemed to also include/require a general intelligence and ability to learn. At best a "consequences gene" was attributed to combinations of others rather than its own thing.

It is in fact FAR more complex than I make it out to be using basic Genetics to explain the concept.  As you point out, predicting consequences is clearly connected to the type of intelligence measured by IQ tests.  The fact is that there are hundreds if not thousands of individual genes which have an impact on intelligence and we're only beginning to map out what they are and where they are located on the chromosomes.  Genes which fall close to one another are referred to as "linked" genes and often get inherited together.  Blond Hair & Blue Eyes are an example of linked genes.  There is a mechanism called crossing over where linked genes sometimes get split, complicating the inheritance picture.

As you note also, genetics (nature) only partially explains intelligence or CFS, education & experience (nurture) also factor in.  However, given both the condition of the education system and our society, it is unlikely nurture is improving on nature much these days.

Anyhow, I simplified both the concepts and the math involved in genetics and inheritance to make the concepts readable and understandable to people not familiar with biochemistry.  The general principle though is valid even though the 10% number I estimate for non-morons is just a WAG and intelligence is relative because all I can compare it against is my own.  Which makes the whole thing quite biased. lol.  A more reasonable number is probably 80% morons.  Still  large majority though.

RE

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 25, 2025, 05:48 PM

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 25, 2025, 04:32 PMThe blind obedience gene is dominant.  For sure it is not recessive.

Couldn't find that as a specific gene either.

Quote from: K-DogIt works with the socialization gene to make morons of otherwise capable people.  Their other abilities, being in the normal range; let them pass easily.

And what type of test would you recommend to identify these types of people?

This should do it.

Quote from: K-Dog on Nov 26, 2025, 06:35 AM

Quote from: TDoS on Nov 25, 2025, 05:48 PMAnd what type of test would you recommend to identify these types of people?

This should do it.

RE explained a topic in an interesting and understandable way. Was worth looking up and seeing how deep that rabbit hole could go, and when you get into all the combinations, the answer is...DEEP.

And when I ask about a test I get....Youtube wanting me to identify myself.....

I'm sure the video has a point.....you know...getting hits and likes or whatnot.....but the real question this generated in my mind is....did you provide a video because they can enunciate or explain said test far better than you can? I'll take the video as an answer of course....if you can vouch for them answering the question I asked.

Unfortuately, what usually happens with video links is the person doing the linking thinks there is a kernel of some sort in there...or maybe even some phrase of concept which answers ALL questions. Maybe it does...maybe it doesn't. Unfortunately, what usually happens with videos....someone likes one...and it becomes a catchall of some sort, and saves someone from having to do anything except wave at someone elses work and say..."Just watch this video and all will be revealed!".

Sort of like....THE BIBLE!!! A wonderful work of history, used by everyone to justify about everything. An advocate slings out a book and verse number, and uses it to prove a point. Or should I say, INTERPRETS it to make a point. And another Bible thumper can then sling out a book and verse contradicting the first..or INTERPRET it as contradicting the first. And then we found religions that fight and kill each other over he said/she said nonsense.

The internet and videos have sort of become like that. If you had kicked out some published research I could get my hands on, that has refernces and argument and logic all rolled up to make the point and can evaluated on its own, that would work! But videos....are....like modern....cartoons.....and while cartoons were usually pretty funny on Saturday morning...they sure weren't ever designed to be very....informative.

You look for an answer where none there is.  Living with ambiguity is hard.  A true master practices long to become comfortable with ambiguity.

Consider, that the stupid, unable to find answers for themselves do not know ambiguity at all.  They cannot balance a pencil on its point or consider the nuances of argument.  Nuance at all they cannot see.  Off to it they are turned.  Embracing contradiction and being comfortable with it is a skill that takes practice.  The stupid are too afraid of the empty void to experience contradiction as it is meant to be experienced.

You also have no fucking sense of humor.