Quote from: K-Dog on Feb 07, 2025, 12:56 PMLenin's concept of the vanguard party refers to a highly organized and disciplined group of revolutionary leaders from the working class who guide and educate the proletariat towards achieving a socialist revolution. This party is seen as essential for leading the working class in overthrowing the existing capitalist system and establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat.

Well, I'm all for an organized and disciplined cadre of Leaders to point the followers in the working class in the right direction, but said charismatic and intelligent working class heroes have yet to emerge.  Hard to see how they will emerge with the cacophony of voices pitching ideas out on Social Media.  Not to mention. how do you get the followers to follow when they are so easily fooled by the bullshit fed them bywannabee dictators like Trump?

QuoteI'm not punishing anybody.

Yes, you are.  You said Amerika DESERVES being fucked by Trump.  That's the punishment you say is deserving.  You may not be dishing it out, but you're giving it the thumbs up.  Except I live here, I'm a citizen and I DON'T deserve it.

RE

As a materialist my use of 'DESERVES' is no more than an expression of thoughts, with full awareness that my thoughts are only thoughts.  I express a logical consistency, an ideal consistency, crafted in an idealism that is not a consistency related to the real world.

Thanks for the clarification.  Unfortunately, here in the real world, a whole lotta USAID workers who didn't vote for Trump are currently trying to figure out how they'll pay the bills and what job 10 years experience dishing out food in Somalia qualifies them for.  They're the main folks being punished here.

RE

@RE: In K-Dog's defense as an outsider looking in it is becoming harder to be sympathetic with the average American. And I will try and explain why. The issue here is the Americans didn't vote for Trump once but did so on TWO occasions. Now doing it once is somewhat understandable as sometimes in the heat of the moment we can make irrational decisions. I have done or made stupid decisions so yes it is forgivable to make a poor decisions however the fact people have voted him in twice indicates there is some deeper issue at play here.

You also have to consider that Trump telegraphed a lot of his moves before his elections. He was very open about his desires to implement tariffs, cut off aid, massively reduce government spending and breed a general environment of hate and contempt for others and the institutions that define people and the nation. Many people voted for him on that platform so if things go south they are also culpable because they supported such actions. 

As they say, you sleep on the bed you make. Now I do get it, this sucks for the people who voted against and even actively fought hard against the Trump re-election as those people suffer the same loss of reputation as the one that gets suckered in. In this instance and especially those outside America everyone will look at you with a lower regard.

I can relate to this because the UK's standing went down a notch when they voted for Brexit. Many of the people in Europe thought we were foolish and all Brits were tarnished with the same brush even though a good chunk voted against Brexit. However in history people tend only to remember the winners and in this instance the winners were the people who voted for Trump (or in the case of Brexit voted for Brexit).

You can argue this is not fair but this is the nature on how people make their judgements and could partly explain why this belief that "it is all Americans fault" comes from. To put this more simply, what I think this argument boils down to (correct me if I am wrong K-Dog) is that while the Trump's of this world are the ones who commit the crimes their mandate comes from a large base of support that enables them to allow the status quo to continue.

The biggest grey area in this kinda debate is how informed are the public? On many occasions the public are genuinely deceived so it hard to blame them for their voting patterns but in the case of today, it is harder to say you are innocent when clear facts against Trump (or any other hare brained ideology) are presented and you choose to ignore reality and give your vote to the local populist who makes you feel better.

Quote from: monsta666 on Feb 08, 2025, 12:37 AM@RE: In K-Dog's defense as an outsider looking in it is becoming harder to be sympathetic with the average American.

I don't have sympathy for the average Amerikan J6P who voted for Trump.  I have sympathy for the MAJORITY of average Amerikan J6Ps who DID NOT vote for him.  Adding in the ones who didn't vote at all, probably 65-70% of all Amerikans didn't vote for him.  I'm one of those people, and I don't like being blamed for Trump as though this is my responsibility just because I hold an Amerikan passport.  That is totally unfair and unjustified.

Thus the reason I don't approve of collectivizing guilt in this case.  If you're going to make a generalization like this, at minimum a majority of the people should have commtted the offense, preferably an overwhelming majority.  I'm OK with collectivizations like Eat the Rich because the vast majority deserve to be eaten. 

RE

QuoteWhile the Trump's of this world are the ones who commit the crimes their mandate comes from a large base of support that enables them to allow the status quo to continue.

Yes, the average American has culpability (nobody here is average).  When Palestinians are being hunted from helicopters to clean out the place for Trump Atlantic City 2.0 Kushner hotels, the Average American has culpability.

When I was young, I would contemplate what the 'ugly American' meant.  I feel like I was the only one who contemplated.

Has Trump said where the Palestinians are supposed to go?  Oh, I forgot.  Trump gives no fucks.

Status quo in America means 'all for me' and 'fuck you'.

Quoteethnic cleansing
noun
Synonyms of ethnic cleansing

: the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity

In America this is generally considered a good thing.  The Palestine situation proves it.  The Trump tribe is the ugliest of all ugly Americans.

Quote from: K-Dog on Feb 08, 2025, 04:59 AMStatus quo in America means 'all for me' and 'fuck you'.

Pretty much. For example, in America, when people have EARNED their wealth through hard work, creativity, the ability to build ideas into companies and real estate holdings and bank account balances, they damn well should be allowed to keep it! Be it the success or K-Dog or Elon, these people had what it took in 'MURIKA! and it make perfect sense that they don't have to share with others...beyond whatever government tax agents require of them anyway.

The one given in this equation is that those who have achieved these lofty stations in life sure as shooting aren't about to have their wealth distibuted to the unwashed masses and their unaccomplished efforts and abilities just so they can be sure of 3 hots and cot at the end of the day! That wouldn't be 'MURICAN!, but..something else...more like a system where those who work hard are brought low in order to provide those hhots and a cot for Joe Dope Smoker or BLM activist, or others shunned by the current 'MERICA! system.

Watching what is actually happening is way more interesting than bitching about the way things ought to be. In a general sense we are fearful little bundles of belief, opinion, and memory - all of which are, shall we say, inaccurate at best, and preposterous at worst.

As per topic, I suppose once we have moved the entirety of America into a renewable energy model we can then talk shit about China and the rest of the world that won't be grubbing at the earth and sleeping in cob huts.

Quote from: K-Dog on Feb 08, 2025, 04:59 AMHas Trump said where the Palestinians are supposed to go?

Yah.  He wants Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to take them.  None of them are the least bit interested in importing the problems Gaza has.  Trump will likely try to convince them by dishing out more sanctions if they continue to refuse.

Il Duce got his RE philosophy from his dad the slumlord.  He bought old buildings and let them deteriorate until they became unlivable, often condemned by the city.  Residents were forced to move out or live in unsanitary conditions.  Once he got the renters out, the buildings were renovated, neighborhoods were gentrified and sold off as condos to wealthy buyers.  If it didn't happen fast enogh naturally, he would infest the buildings with vermin on purpose.  The Israelis have done the job of making Gaza unlivable, andd nobody will rebuild it to house poor Palestinians.  The Donald sees great Beaachfront property for condos, hotels  and casinos he can build if he gets the Palestinians out and Ammerika take owneership of Gaza.  The Palestinian people don't fit into this plan.

The thing is, Palestine was ALREADY a colonial possession of the Brits.  The Brits unloaded it because the Palestinians couldn't stand them, any more than the Indians could.  At  the end of WWII, they saw it as a way to solve another problem, that of the displaced European Jews Hitler didn't manage to gas.  Nobody wanted the Jews then, anymore than they want the Palestinians today.  So they dumped them all in Paalestine and artificial lines were drawn so Jews were in the majority in a tiny sliver of land.  They forced out Palestinians in the 1948 war.

Trump's wet dream of a Gaza Riviera for Billionaires to dock their super yachts won't happen short of genocide of the Palestinians.  If they are forced out into concentration camps in the neighboring countries, they will continue the terrorism from those locations as bases of operations.  Trump hotels on the Gaza Riviera will be bombed daily.  Then instead of Israeli drones bombing the camps, he'll have to send Amerikan drones.  The surrounding countries know this, thus they will not accept the refugees except under extreme duress.

What you have down there in all the Muslim countries is a permanent underclass under an existential threat.  They have nothing left to lose, so they will continue terrorism from any location they are stuffed into.  Thus the only solution is the same one Hitler came up with, the FINAL SOLUTION.  Only by eradicating them from existence can Trump build Casinos on the Gaza Riviera.  He's working his way up to it, just as Hitler did with the Jews.  At first he just tried to deport them, but while other countries would accept Jews who had money. they wouldn't take the millions who were poor.  That's when Hitler went into bizness with Bayer AG to exterminate the Jews.  It's the exact same playbook.

RE

The huge juicy depopulated middle part of what will be "formerly known as 'Ukraine'" would be a good place for the Palestinians. Jews already have an oblast in Russia, might as well give one to the Palestinians.
Turn the whole of Israel into a  nature preserve.

Quote from: comrade simba on Feb 08, 2025, 11:24 AMThe huge juicy depopulated middle part of what will be "formerly known as 'Ukraine'" would be a good place for the Palestinians. Jews already have an oblast in Russia, might as well give one to the Palestinians.
Turn the whole of Israel into a  nature preserve.

I seriously doubt the Ruskies, Hungarians, Poles or anyone else surrounding Ukraine wants a few million Muslims occupying some of the best farmland in Europe. not to mention the Ukrainians still living there.  That suggestion doesn't even fly as sarcasm.

RE

Quote from: comrade simba on Feb 08, 2025, 11:24 AMThe huge juicy depopulated middle part of what will be "formerly known as 'Ukraine'" would be a good place for the Palestinians. Jews already have an oblast in Russia, might as well give one to the Palestinians.
Turn the whole of Israel into a  nature preserve.

Where does the arrogance come from which says we have the right to decide how people we will never meet shall live?

Perhaps making outrageous claims is a way to control people.  It seems to be very effective.  Both Musk and Trump seem to be masters of the art of this steal.  Your statement seems typical of their outrageous statements, and makes as much sense as moving all commies to Mars because it is the red planet.  Nonsense, total nonsense, but what this nonsense seems to do in the mind is suggest 'this person knows stuff I don't.  I should kiss their feet.  It makes gods of fools.

Induced submission comes about as a side effect of the deliberately induced confusion.

Quote from: K-Dog on Feb 09, 2025, 04:32 AMWhere does the arrogance come from which says we have the right to decide how people we will never meet shall live?

It comes from power and conquest, and it goes all the way back to the beginning of recorded history.  A group of people must have a "homeland" where they are in the majority and make the laws by which everyone living in that space lives.

Back in Biblical times, Jews were the first monotheistic religion, and with God on their side they busily smote other tribes in the neighborhood.  Then they got enslaved by the Pharaohs and eventually got deported from the country and wandered around in the desert.  Meanwhile in Italy the Romans with their Pantheon of Gods got busy conquering everyone and building an empire.

Jews were still around, and over the years of the "diaspora" settled communities, the so called "13 Tribes" of Israel.  None were powerful enough to beat the Romans at the War game, but with the help of the Son of God they were able to convert the Roman Emperor to Christianity.  At least the Jews who accpted Jesus was the Messiah, anyhow.  The leftover Jews who did not accept this were once again in the minority to Christians.

Over thee intervening years without a homeland, Jews got shoved around from country to country generally being persecuted all the time.  Things were very unpleasant for them during the years of the Crusades and the Inquisition and later with the Pogroms in Russia.

Meanwhile also unable to conquer the now Christian Romans over in the Eastern part of the Empire, a new Messiah popped up named Mohamed.  He got enough followers for Islam to gain control over MENA, followed by centuries of warfare between Christians and Muslims fighting over land.

Then here on Turtle Island the Europeans showed up and didn't bother with trying to deport the natives, with their guns and the smallpox they were able to easily exterminate them and take over the whole continent.  They herded the few remaining stragglers onto reservations as their homelands.

Over in Europe Jews survived in pockets until Hitler came on the scene, and unable to deport all of them began the process of exterminating them.  Unfortunately for him and his antisemitic followers, he lost the war before he could finish the job, and left the winners of the war, the Brits and Amerikans with the problem of the leftover Jews in Eastern Europe.  Nobody wanted them in their countries, so the Brits who controlled Palestine as a colony and couldn't control it shipped the Jews there, where they formed an enclave where they were in the majority and expelled the Arabs, then they got the UN to give them official status as a country.  After 3000 years, Jews finally had a homeland of their own.

Sadly for them, the war in 1948 did not exterminate the Arabs who lived there before, and besides that as their population grew they wanted more of the land, thus you got the 6 Day war and expansion.  The Muslims in the neighborhood aren't happy with that, so they have been fighting it ever since with a terror war.

So, the origin of the problem is the Brits who held power over Palestine gave it to the Jews which made the Palestinians who lived there unhappy.  Did the Brits have the right to give the land to the Jews?  Sure they did, they  were the colonial owners of the property, not the Palestinians who lived there.  What Trump wants to do is create Reservations for the Palestinians to, the same way reservations were created here for the natives to move to.  This is the alternative to genocide in the takeover of land occupied by one group so another group can move in.  Might makes Right.

RE

Quote from: K-Dog on Feb 09, 2025, 04:32 AM

Quote from: comrade simba on Feb 08, 2025, 11:24 AMThe huge juicy depopulated middle part of what will be "formerly known as 'Ukraine'" would be a good place for the Palestinians. Jews already have an oblast in Russia, might as well give one to the Palestinians.
Turn the whole of Israel into a  nature preserve.

Where does the arrogance come from which says we have the right to decide how people we will never meet shall live?

Where do you think? 'MURIKANS Been arrogant for awhile now, starting with getting cocky knocking off the indigenous peoples to steal their land, then kicking out the British Empire because we didn't want to live on THEIR land we stole from the locals, but our own, and then murdering the rest of the indigenous because...well....we could...and becoming a minor colonial power ourselves, then kicking some backside in wars overseas, and exceptionalism arrived and so on and so forth.

I was under the impression that 'MURIKAN indoctrination began early in the public schools of America?

QuoteI was under the impression that 'MURIKAN indoctrination began early in the public schools of America?

There are many kinds of indoctrination.  Seems some of us can pick and choose our poison.

Personally I find the domination of others incompatible with freedom, but I guess that is just me.