Of course this will be no surprise to long term readers of the Diner as well as anyone familiar with how the various corporate behemoths in industries like tobacco and pharmaceuticals employ scientists for the specific purpose of obfuscating and camouflaging the damage they do to both the health of people and the health of the planet.  It is worthwhile though to get specifics on who knew what and when they knew it in terms of at some point perhaps assigning blame and prosecuting the managers, scientists and engineers who were instrumental in what will in due time be the largest Mass Murder of homo sapiens in history.  If you cover up activity you know is deadly, that makes you an accessory to murder, so all the leading scientists and engineers who worked for the fossil fuel extraction industry should be tried for multiple counts of 1st Degree Murder and then Executed once found Guilty.


Of course, with Judges now being appointed by Trumpovetsky it's more likely said murderers will be given the Congressional Medal of Honor, but at least when they face Eternal Judgement we can be relieved to know they will Burn in Everlasting Damnation in the Fire & Brimstone of HELL.

Big oil firms knew of dire effects of fossil fuels as early as 1950s, memos show

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/12/big-oil-fossil-fuel-warning

RE

QuoteBig oil firms knew of dire effects of fossil fuels as early as 1950s, memos show

The roots of morality lie in applying logos to natural social relations.  This requires thought and is a cultural activity.  Natural social relationships are biological based on instinct.  Without culture biological relations dominate.

Tribal relations have the biological basis.  Successful application of logos to tribal instincts requires extensive cultural conditioning.  Tribal roots are deep.  Difficult to adjust.

Tribal relations say do not give a fuck about anyone but you and yours.  And the morality of certain traditions says everyone is in your tribe.  Problem solved.

But the going from A to B is not a thing that is automatic here.  Common morality worships biology over logos.  The morality of the useless eater.  Logos is in short supply.  Defining everyone as a member of the tribe is an enlightened tradition and not the default.

Consider MAGA and think about dropping the second A.  Make America Great does not have strong power without the 'Again'.  The 'Again' represents existing tribal membership.  It gives warm fuzzies to the circle-jerking tribe and fucks everyone else.  Without 'Again' people feel naked and alone.

The big oil tribe took care of itself and fucked future generations.  This is normal human behavior.

Logos is in short supply.

Quote from: RE on Nov 12, 2024, 11:51 AMIt is worthwhile though to get specifics on who knew what and when they knew it in terms of at some point perhaps assigning blame and prosecuting the managers, scientists and engineers who were instrumental in what will in due time be the largest Mass Murder of homo sapiens in history.

How about we do the same to humans in general? How about we start with people who could easily know if htey gave a shit, because it was being PUBLISHED IN THE PAPER, in 1912? How could oil companies like XOM hide something that was known right about the time Standard Oil broke up and formed the Seven Sisters?

Shit, a WOMAN in 1856, back when women were so subservient and stupid they weren't allowed to vote, PUBLISHED it.

In 1856 she published a paper notable for demonstrating the absorption of heat by CO2 and water vapor and hypothesizing that changing amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere would alter the climate. It was the first known publication in a scientific journal by an American woman in the field of physics.

So....what EXACTLY did oil companies and anyone who worked for them hide? And from WHO? Morons tht couldn't read? Never saw a library before in their life?

I would argue that every lard assed American, every American moron that couldn't be bothered to learn in school, and then went on to happily ignore the consequences of their big house, gas guzzling burning liquid fuels and heating their homes and cooking their food with natural gas should be indicted and convicted of whatever "being criminally stupid" brings.

People look in a mirror, confront their fossil fuel use knowing what it has meant SINCE 1857, and then what do people do? Happily jump into their liquid fuel burning cage and don't give a shit. People are getting what they deserve. XOM has never been in the business of educating stupid people. Seems unreasonable to convict them of.....people specializing in A) being willingly ignorant or B) not giving a rats ass.

You are better educated than most. Are you seriously arguing YOU didn't know about greenhouse gases as someone who knew Physics and Chemistry 101 from high school? Let alone an advanced degree? And knowing this, why didn't YOU recoil in horror at the idea of what your globe trotting as a young man, and later as a vorciferous consumer of diesel  just to move shit around, meant to the climate.

Because you didn't give a shit then anymore than anyone else.

And now...suddenly....you want revenge on oil producers because....they MADE you globe trot as a young man? They MADE you drive trucks? By...hiding information anyone who gave a shit already KNEW about?

What a novel legal argument. Maybe not...law is about finding someone to blame if only to shift that blame from someone (or some species) to easy targets. Like a child....caught with a candy bar they aren't allowed to have and pointing at the cat...."HE MADE ME DO IT!!!!" hoping the parents fall for it.

Quoteou are better educated than most. Are you seriously arguing YOU didn't know about greenhouse gases as someone who knew Physics and Chemistry 101 from high school?

And here is where you shoot yourself in the foot.  RE and I have both known about greenhouse gasses peak oil, and our impending collapse for a long time now.  Ever since the moment we learned the facts we have bitched for change.  Evidenced by the fact that we are fucking here.

And your role appears to be to show up, and throw sand in our gears.  And deny reality.






To clarify who has responsibility, those who had power to make a change and did nothing.  Those who chose profit knowing others were disenfranchised and hurt.

An example will be whoever sent Kilmar Abrego Garcia to El Salvador needs serious jail time.  The argument that they were nur befolgen von befehlen (only following orders) has zero merit.






* Not asking for sympathy but I was about 12 - 14 years old when I figured out that A) Society depended on gas going into cars, and without it everything stops because all the horses are gone. & B)  The big lakes of gasoline hiding between grains of sand in the ground had to run out.  And C) Oh shit everybody dies.  What was I to do with this information?

** And I was about 12 when my father made it crystal clear to me that just because everyone else was doing something was no excuse for me doing it.  Your argument falls apart on those grounds.  Sometimes a person stopped for speeding will point out that they were just doing what everyone else was doing.  Officers are unruffled and simply agree with a : "Yes, but you are the one I stopped."

Quote from: K-Dog on Apr 06, 2025, 09:55 AM

Quoteou are better educated than most. Are you seriously arguing YOU didn't know about greenhouse gases as someone who knew Physics and Chemistry 101 from high school?

And here is where you shoot yourself in the foot.  RE and I have both known about greenhouse gasses peak oil, and our impending collapse for a long time now.  Ever since the moment we learned the facts we have bitched for change.  Evidenced by the fact that we are fucking here.

Not sure how I shoot myself in the foot. I certainly didn't say anything about collapse. I found the idea amusing that company personnel or the company itself should be held legally liable for common knowledge. Why don't we advocate for jailing folks for knowing that candy has sugar in it and causes diabetes? Not the people eating it of course, but those who DARED put the sugar in, labeled the food appropriately, and then had the audacity to sell it to those of us who pretended it was their fault for making it as opposed to ours for eating it?

As far as"bitching", in your case did it involve any tangible results? Solar panels on the roof, perhaps you converted your Benz to an EV after purchasing them, you use a wood stove instead of a heat pump or gas fired furnace?

Quote from: K-DogAnd your role appears to be to show up, and throw sand in our gears.  And deny reality.

Well, I've been showing up to watch RE longer than you have, and no one I know of considers being better informed on the timing of a thing is denying reality.

Quote from: K-Dog* Not asking for sympathy but I was about 12 - 14 years old when I figured out that A) Society depended on gas going into cars, and without it everything stops because all the horses are gone. & B)  The big lakes of gasoline hiding between grains of sand in the ground had to run out.  And C) Oh shit everybody dies.  What was I to do with this information?

Damn, you knew geology stuff before I even knew what geology was!

Never learned the "everybody dies" part (other than natural human mortality) because I was good at the entire survive without fossil fuels thing on the farm. I loved riding the horses. They just needed the hay mostly.

Quote from: K-Dog** And I was about 12 when my father made it crystal clear to me that just because everyone else was doing something was no excuse for me doing it.

My father was a murderer and didn't teach me anything.

Quote from: K-DogYour argument falls apart on those grounds.  Sometimes a person stopped for speeding will point out that they were just doing what everyone else was doing.  Officers are unruffled and simply agree with a : "Yes, but you are the one I stopped."

Not sure I made an argument. Just a point.

RE wants to prosecute people for knowing something. Worse yet, for something that was commmon knowledge before the company he wants to prosecute even existed. 

I'm glad your father taught you stuff. When mine fired off some rounds through the plate glass front window at my grandparents house where we lived it only taught me to learn how to use a firearm better than that asshat. He was probably drunk, but still. Fucker couldn't deliver results for shit. Maybe that is a lesson I learned from him? Certainly reversed that family trait.

QuoteRE wants to prosecute people for knowing something.

That is the trouble with being an adult.  We can be responsible for knowing things, and we can be held accountable for inaction should our inaction knowingly cause harm to others.

And enforcing this maxim is the only way to stop Trump.  His minions must experience consequences for 'knowing stuff' while committing illegal acts in his name.

It it is often said that ignorance is not an excuse.  If that has any truth at all 'knowing stuff' in no way could ever be considered an excuse.  That would be backwards.  Knowing stuff to the contrary holds people to account, establishes intent, and certifies guilt.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer stated that stupidity not malice is a greater danger to society.  Stupidity is a social phenomena.  Stupidity thrives in groups, silences critical thinking, and causes people to blindly accept 'known stuff' without reflection.  From which unspeakable acts then result.

Trump's success reflects a collective moral failure from which people must be individually held accountable.

Quote from: K-Dog on Apr 06, 2025, 09:52 PM

QuoteRE wants to prosecute people for knowing something.

That is the trouble with being an adult.  We can be responsible for knowing things, and we can be held accountable for inaction should our inaction knowingly cause harm to others.

A well written response to the point I initially made.

My response is as follows: You know as I do that our fossil fuel powered cages emit greenhouse gases that will lead to what they already have, degradation of the environment, ultimate collapse/destruction of society. You know it, I know it.

So both of us can be held accountable for our personal inaction, you and I knowingly driving liquid fueled polluting machines. What punishment do you believe you and I deserve?

Quote from: K-DogAnd enforcing this maxim is the only way to stop Trump. 

Not just Trump, or XOM. You and I have skin in the game as well. Not so much RE, he has no choice any more about his pollution levels. So he gets a pass.

Quote from: K-DogKnowing stuff to the contrary holds people to account, establishes intent, and certifies guilt.

And the punishment you and I deserve for "knowing stuff" and still helping to pollute this world is....?

Quote from: K-DogDietrich Bonhoeffer stated that stupidity not malice is a greater danger to society.

Sounds like a smart man. But no one mistakes you or I for stupid. Nor can our polluting actions through the continued use of fossil fuels be considered malice. We don't WANT to kill the planet. It just...happens. And we don't want to be inconvienced by riding a bicycle or walking. If we even CAN. I moved end of last year, suddenly the walking or bicycling distance of the grocery, convenience store, movie theater, light rail, all are now a required cage ride away.

Quote from: K-DogStupidity is a social phenomena.

I disagree. Stupidity is a mostly quantifiable intelligience metric within the range of human intelligience. A social phenomena is like...ticTok. Or buying tella tubbies.

Quote from: K-DogStupidity thrives in groups, silences critical thinking, and causes people to blindly accept 'known stuff' without reflection.  From which unspeakable acts then result.

Stupidity loves company, I can buy that. But you are teetering awful close to describing a system that isb't just about intelligience, but exists online with people who aren't stupid, in the online echo chambers that people concoct across a myriad of topics where it isn't stupidity that drives the group, but something more sinister, social compliance, social acceptance for the price of your silence, based on ignorance sometimes, or stupid, but just as often the social desire to feel you are a part of a group, buried in a common belief system that offers support for the precepts of whatever the topic is.

Your comment could also apply to religion. A form of social contol based on comply, or be cast out. Believe what I believe, regardless of veracity, and you win! Prove that I am wrong and dare to voice the proof? Banished.

Like Luther except on a small scale.

QuoteSo both of us can be held accountable for our personal inaction, you and I knowingly driving liquid fueled polluting machines. What punishment do you believe you and I deserve?

None, the situation is not in our control and what has been in my control I have tried to change.  I spent 20K on a heat pump last year.  I could have got a gas furnace far cheaper.  I try to only travel when I must.

Conservatives often shift the focus of responsibility onto individuals—rather than on the corporations, industries, and policy failures responsible  Many rhetorical and political strategies are employed, and their deflection onto the individual protects entrenched economic interests (particularly fossil fuel industries.  It is a mechanism to prevent systemic change.

Corporations are responsible for ~70% of global emissions.

So either you are part of the dark side, or you are misinformed and choose to remain so.  Trying to place the burden on individuals is a cheap trick you can't play here.  It prevents change, and I won't have it.

QuoteI disagree. Stupidity is a mostly quantifiable intelligience metric within the range of human intelligience. A social phenomena is like...ticTok. Or buying tella tubbies.

Five Universal Laws of Human Stupidity were written down by Carlo M. Cipolla in a letter distributed among his friends.

Here they are:

• Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid people in circulation.
• The probability that a certain person is stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
  Intelligence, education, or status doesn't make someone immune.
• A stupid person is causes losses to other people while deriving no gain.  They also incur losses themselves.
• Non-stupids always underestimate the damaging power of the stupid. 
• A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.  More dangerous than simple evil which knows what it does.